The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the First Minister

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the First Minister. And the first question is from Darren Millar.

Infrastructure in North Wales

Darren Millar AC: 1. Will the First Minister outline what consideration the Welsh Government has given to improving infrastructure in north Wales? OAQ51601

Carwyn Jones AC: Our recently published national transport finance plan sets out an ambitious programme of road, rail, bus and active travel improvements as part of a balanced and sustainable plan for transport investment across Wales.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. One thing that many people in north Wales crow about is the disparity between the investment in south Wales in the transport infrastructure and that in the north. You're spending £1.4 billion on an M4 relief road, £400 million more than you were anticipating not that long ago. You announced £180 million for the metro central project in Cardiff, and that's within, of course, a £2 billion package for the south Wales metro system. Now, I don't decry those investments, but when is north Wales going to get its fair share? We've got cripplingly bad infrastructure on the A55, which regularly is congested, we've got problems with our flood defences, and broadband access, particularly in rural communities, is completely unacceptable.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, the A55 is of course a key strategic route in the north. Last year, we completed a £42 million programme to bring the tunnels of Conwy, Penmaenbach and Pen-y-clip up to current standards. We're also investing approximately £40 million to upgrade junctions 15 and 16, and another £200 million in the Deeside corridor. In addition, the Abergwyngregyn to Tai'r Meibion advanced drainage scheme was completed over the summer, and we published the draft orders and an environmental statement on the main A55 Abergwyngregyn to Tai'r Meibion improvement scheme. Now, other works in the north include the acceleration of the completion date for a third Menai crossing, which could nowopen in 2022, and progression of the proposed Caernarfon and Bontnewydd bypass, which represents further investment of over £125 million to the network—and that's just to the roads.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I’m looking at a map of the electric car charging points across Britain. We see, across north Wales, how poor the provision is in terms of swift charging. I look forward to the revolution in the use of electric vehicles, but that isn’t going to be able to happen unless the Government truly shows ambition and puts a strategy in place in order to ensure that we are preparing the infrastructure for that revolution. So, where are the signs from the Government you’re taking this seriously?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, of course we take it seriously, and we have to ensure that the structure is in place. One of the problems is there’s such a diversity as regards the way in which cars can be charged. There are at least three sockets that I can think of, as someone who drives a hybrid. What we need, of course, is for the manufacturers to consider how they could have one uniform charger, then it would be easier for the Government to ensure that we can facilitate having more charging points. And, of course, we can ask: what comes first—cars or the network? We want to ensure that we have a pan-Wales network, and this is something being considered by the Minister.

Mobile Phone Coverage

Neil Hamilton AC: 2. Will the First Minister make a statement on mobile phone coverage in Mid and West Wales? OAQ51634

Carwyn Jones AC: We recognise the ever-growing importance of mobile communications in rural areas. And our mobile action plan sets out how we plan to work with the industry and regulator to improve mobile connectivity across the country.

Neil Hamilton AC: I thank the First Minister for that reply, and I know the Government is giving a high priority to improving connectivity in the countryside. But I'm sure he'd agree with me that a lot more is yet to be done. There is a significant potential problem with lack of mobile phone coverage in regard to public transport. A constituent has written to me from Llan-non in Ceredigion, which has only four buses on a Sunday to Aberaeron, to say that he was waiting for the 11:27 bus recently, which didn't arrive. On the website, you're encouraged, of course, to check the website for timetable changes and delays, but he couldn't do that, because—

Much as I'm interested in bus times in Llan-non, this question is about mobile phone signal.

Neil Hamilton AC: Yes, correct. But people with mobile phones are encouraged to check the website for delays to the service, which couldn't be done in this particular instance because there was no mobile coverage at the bus stop at which he was waiting for the bus.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, no-one's going to pretend that mobile coverage is exactly universal, in many parts of Wales. I live in the middle of a town and I can't get mobile coverage in my house. So, we know that there is a challenge for the industry—this is not devolved of course—to make sure that it doesextend coverage, as in other countries now. What are we doing as the Government? Well, the mobile action plan is well under way, with good progress being made. We are currently working to define eligibility for business rate support for new mast sites, and I know that the Cabinet Secretary has appointed Innovation Point to advise, stimulate and co-ordinate activity on 5G in Wales, including opportunities to secure funding from the UK Government testbed and trials challenge fund.

Angela Burns AC: Good afternoon, First Minister. You'll know that the Office of Communications report found that 12 per cent of the Welsh land mass is unable to get any mobile phone coverage, and given, for example, in the last six months, the appalling storm damage we've had and emergency situations, I wondered if your Government has spoken to, or would consider talking to some of the innovators—companies such as EE—about using drone technology or the helikitesystem, which works off a helium balloon, which will provide people with temporary mobile phone coverage during times of emergency. Of course, it would not only help to co-ordinate emergency services but let people know that they're in dire straits or that they need help.

Carwyn Jones AC: It's certainly an interesting idea. I'm informed that the Cabinet Secretary has met with industry representatives in order to discuss this. It's hugely important that, where we have emergencies, there is a sufficiently robust communications network in place in order to deal with those emergencies. As I say, a meeting has recently taken place to discuss that very point.

Simon Thomas AC: Although you mention the importance of the availability of mobile phones, 4G has only just got to Mynydd Rhiw and the Llŷn peninsula. There are some areas that are gravely behind in rural Wales. One thing that's often forgotten is how important the mobile phone will be for automation on farms and robotics. It's coming to a point now that you can control farm machinery and other aspects through a telephone system and using the phone signal—not the phone itself but the signal. Will you ensure, therefore, that that's available as we leave the European Union—that that best technology is available in all parts of Wales, particularly for our farmers?

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes, we have to ensure that. What I've noticed in other countries—. I was in Uganda three years ago, and the network there was much better than the United Kingdom's. I was in very rural areas that were very difficult to access by road, but when you got there, there were five bars of 4G available. Why? Well, there hadn't been any investment at all in landlines and so they only had mobiles. Therefore, that's where the investment had gone. But we must ensure that we don't pretend that there is a network of lines there already that have been there for many years, and use that as an excuse not to progress with a stronger mobile phone network. We want to see a situation where there are many more places in Wales that can get a signal. At the moment, it is true that it's difficult in rural areas, but the same is true of some urban areas as well. For example, people complain to me—I don't know as I don't live there—about the Pontcanna area. There is no mobile phone signal right in the centre of Cardiff. So, there is a lot of work to be done in rural areas as there is in urban areas.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. The Plaid Cymru leader, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, leaked documents suggest that the Hywel Dda Local Health Board is considering the future of hospitals in its area. Now, it's only been around three years since the last reconfiguration, which was meant to offer a long-term and sustainable solution, yet people now face more proposals, including closures. Was the health board being honest about its last reconfiguration?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, the health board itself could answer that. I see no reason why they were not being honest. There are always challenges. The parliamentary review, which all parties that have signed up to, have said that there will be difficult decisions in the future. Now, as a Government, we have no view on this. This is not our policy. These are options that the health board has taken forward. What's hugely important is that whatever the health board considers is taken forward with full public consultation.

Leanne Wood AC: Well, First Minister, you have to ultimately be responsible and accountable for health. Health is fully devolved and responsible to you. Now, the health board are indicating that they want people treated closer to their homes and in the community, but that's not what the proposals in the leaked document appear to be about. One aspect that could complement existing hospital services is the creation of community hubs with beds,or perhaps more accurately, 'I can't believe it's not a community hospital'. Shutting down community hospitals was once a Labour Government's policy, and it has led to a reduction in beds, and it has been a big mistake. Community services should not be used as an excuse to close district general hospitals. With bed occupancy across the NHS over the safe level of 85 per cent for the last seven years, do you accept that the NHS needs more beds in order to enable it to cope with the additional winter pressures?

Carwyn Jones AC: I think we need to focus not just on the issue of beds, but on the issue of getting people out of hospital as quickly as possible. That means that, if you look at delayed transfers of care, our figures are greatly improved month on month, and greatly improved from last year. We don't want people staying in hospital for longer than they have to.
But, of course, the other point that we have to understand is that we need an NHS that's sustainable. All parties signed up to that as part of the parliamentary review. It's massively important that, yes, of course, we agree with the principle that people should be treated as close to home as possible, but we also need to make sure that services are sustainable in the future. Now, the proposals that have been put forward by Hywel Dda are for Hywel Dda to consider at this stage, to engage in full public consultation. It's true to say that there may come a point when there will need to be a decision by Government, but that point has not yet been reached.

Leanne Wood AC: The point is, First Minister, that people need an integrated health system and community services that complement district general hospitals, not replace them. People in the west are still going to need emergency treatment. They will still need operations, they will still need overnight stays and accident and emergency within a reasonable distance of their homes. Now, a Plaid Cymru government will keep these essential services for our rural communities. That means A&E for Bronglais and Glangwili, and keeping Withybush open.
Now, Plaid Cymru has been warning you for a number of years now about the need to train more doctors. Will you work with Swansea medical school on its proposals to expand the number of doctors in the Hywel Dda health board area? Can you assure people out there, and Members here today, that you will not sign off any decision to remove A&E from Bronglais or Glangwili? Will you also confirm that the Labour Government will not sign off any decision to close Withybush or to remove A&E services from that hospital?

Carwyn Jones AC: It seems to me that it's pointless having any kind of consultation. Now, we have no view on this at this stage, and there are reasons for that. [Interruption.] Simon Thomas knows this full well: the reason why we cannot take a view at this stage is because there's an open consultation. We can't shut down the consultation at this stage. There are legal issues surrounding that, for a start.
It's true to say there will come a point, or there may come a point, where Ministers have to take a decision, and that is the point at which Ministers no doubt will be questioned as to why that decision was taken. But you cannot on the one hand say, 'We've signed up to a parliamentary review looking at creating an NHS that's sustainable' and then say, 'Options are going to be—' [Interruption.] No, no, no. And then say, 'There are some options that will always be ruled out completely'. That is not the way these things operate. Last week, the parliamentary review was being supported by all parties in this Chamber. The question is: are those parties now running away from that review? That is a question that I think needs to be answered.

The leader of the opposition, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, do you still believe that the Welsh Government's preferred black route option for the M4 will come in nowhere near £1 billion and will be way below the figure that you prophesised back in 2015?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, the figure has certainly risen because there's been more of a delay than expected. But we intend to make sure that the issue of congestion on the M4 is dealt with. I wonder what his party's view is.

Andrew RT Davies AC: First Minister, this is First Minister's questions, and that's why we ask you questions and we look for answers from you. We don't seem to get many answers on a week-by-week basis.
But, last week, in the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, the senior civil servant who was dealing with this in the Cabinet Secretary's department indicated that the project cost was somewhere near £1.4 billion to £1.5 billion. The actual figures that have been lodged with the inquiry are £1.3 billion to £1.4 billion. They're actually lodged with the inquiry, those figures are. Only two years ago, you were stating that it was going to be nowhere near £1 billion and would be considerably less than that figure. One hundred and sixty civil servants at that time, as given to us by the Minister, were tied up with this particular project. I ask you again: what has gone wrong? This is the key infrastructure project that the Welsh Government is challenging to deliver. The project costs, if your estimations at that time were to be believed, have nearly doubled, by the civil service's own figures that they put to the inquiry and also identified by the Cabinet Secretary in that committee.

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, first of all, inflation—that makes a difference to the figures; and, secondly, the UK Government is charging VAT. The UK Government is charging VAT. Here's a challenge for him: why doesn't he go back to his party and say, 'Don't charge VAT for this project'? That would save us hundreds of millions of pounds.

Andrew RT Davies AC: That is awful, First Minister. This is your biggest infrastructure project. The negotiations around VAT are still ongoing. Without VAT—and these are the words of your own civil servant in that committee—the costs of this project are in the region of £1.3 billion to £1.4 billion. Only two years ago, you were trying to convince people that this project was going to come in at £800 million. I asked you to let us see that information so we could have confidence that you were building a project on sound finances. All this has been undone. Can you commit now today that there is an upper limit where this project is viable, and if there isn't that upper limit, will you be whipping your backbenchers and having Cabinet responsibility to vote this project through, whatever the cost?

Carwyn Jones AC: He didn't know about the VAT, did he? That was one of the issues that's blind-sided him.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Those discussions are ongoing.

Carwyn Jones AC: I'm surprised that the leader of the opposition isn't aware of the VAT issue, and has not said anything publicly to support the Welsh Government and the Welsh taxpayer. It's one thing to say that negotiations are ongoing, but why isn't he standing up and saying to the Conservative Party—a Conservative Party that took funding away from electrification of the railways to spend outside of Wales; a Conservative Party that is trying to increase the price of the M4 project; a Conservative Party that claimed it was reducing the tolls on the Severn bridge when all it was doing was removing VAT that it wasn't legally able to charge in the first place. I mean, we talk about spinning, but what we have here is a whirling dervish. We will deliver transport projects for the people of Wales in the teeth of opposition from the Conservatives.

Leader of the UKIP group, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Emergency hospital consultants in Wales have recently written to the First Minister claiming that safety is being compromised to an unacceptable degree. The Royal College of Emergency Medicines has described accident and emergency units as battlefields. Dr Tim Rogerson, a consultant in emergency medicine at the Royal Gwent Hospital has said about the picture across Wales,
'We're on our knees as far as emergency care [is concerned]. We have patients coming into emergency departments that are already full.'
The consultants have asked the First Minister to review as a matter of urgency the number of beds available for acute care, and for a significant increase in funding for social care. Is he going to accede to that request?

Carwyn Jones AC: First of all, I'm aware of the pressures there have been on emergency staff, and I thank them for what they have done. It has been very difficult, given intense spikes in demand—unpredicatble spikes in demand at certain days in the course of the holiday period. We would be delighted—delighted—to spend more on health and social care if the brakes were taken off by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Cabinet Secretary for Finance only last week outlined that we could be up to £4 billion better off if previous trends had been followed. That is a significant investment we could make in the health service.
So, yes, we agree with the consultants that we want to spend more money on health and social care. Where are we going to take it from? Schools? Because that's the only place we can go. Put the council tax up? Because that's what will happen if we take money away from local government. We need to make sure the UK Government—. Boris Johnson today, saying there should be £100 million a week available for the NHS in England. That would mean £300 million more available in Wales. On that, if nothing else, I support Boris Johnson.

Neil Hamilton AC: I'm delighted to hear that, because as a result of leaving the European Union there will be more money to spend on the health service. [Interruption.] In answer to the leader of Plaid Cymru—. It's the way you tell them. In answer to the leader of Plaid Cymru earlier on, he said that beds don't really matter; it's how quickly you move people out of them. But the truth of the matter is there's been a very substantial cut in the number of beds available in hospitals throughout Wales in the last seven years—roughly 20 per cent to 25 per cent depending on the health board—but the occupancy rate of those beds has barely moved, and it is higher and has been, as the leader of Plaid Cymru pointed out, above the safe level of 85 per cent now for seven years. Surely, within the priorities of the health service for which the First Minister is responsible, not Boris Johnson, there should be some kind of change to ensure that hospital safety is actually taken very seriously by this Government.

Carwyn Jones AC: It's a matter for health boards to ensure they have sufficient beds available. It's not right to saythat I said beds weren't important: I said they were only part of the picture. If you look, for example, in England, where spending on social care has been hammered, England is now reaping what it has sown. We have made sure through, for example, the integrated care fund, that more people can leave hospital when they are ready. We're seeing delayed transfers of care dropping, whereas in England, of course, social care is on the verge of collapse. If you don't believe me, listen to council leaders—Conservative council leaders—in England, who are saying just that.

Neil Hamilton AC: Sorry, I wasn't aware that the First Minister had finished as there was so much noise coming from other parts of the Chamber. The whole point of my question was not about social care, but about beds in hospitals and hospital care. The consultants who wrote to the First Minister last week said that emergency departments in Wales were, in some ways, worse than in England. Staff are arriving for work to find patients in the emergency department who were there the previous day, and multiple staff are in tears because they feel they cannot deliver the care that patients need. The consultants also claim that the four-hour target figures for best performing hospitals in Wales were similar to some of the worst performinghospitals in England. Surely, that is an indictment of 20 years of Labour Government in Wales.

Carwyn Jones AC: There are question marks over England's figures for a start. That doesn't diminish, of course, the pressures there have been on emergency services in Wales and I certainly don't seek to belittle that in any way, shape or form. But the question is this: should you divorce the issue of health and social care, as he's trying to do with his third question? The answer is, 'No, you cannot.' The two are integrated, the two are the same, they're integrated in terms of the service they seek to deliver to people and we have put money into that through the integrated care fund, making sure that people are able to leave hospital when they are able.
What England did was to try to spend money on health and starve social care of money, effectively taking away from social care and putting into health, and now England is reaping the whirlwind of that. We always took the view that health and social care had to be seen in the round and that one was strongly linked to the other.
If we look, for example, just beyond that to the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Bill; that looks at bringing together education and health provision for young people as well. So, we've made sure, when it comes to spending, that spending in Wales is higher per head than in England on health and on social care to make sure that we don't let our people down just like the Government has done in England.

Cashless Payment Systems for School Meals

Joyce Watson AC: 3. Will the First Minister make a statement on the operation of cashless payment systems for school meals? OAQ51615

Carwyn Jones AC: There are many benefits to schools using cashless systems: helping schools meet the requirement to protect the identity of learners, for example, who receive free school meals, and preventing the situation arising of children losing their lunch money.

Joyce Watson AC: There is, of course, evidence of a link between cashless payment systems and better take-up of free school meals, and that's why I've supported and campaigned for their introduction in every school in Wales. Powys has done that and I think that's absolutelyfantastic, but we now have a situation whereby children whose parents pay for lunch and who haven't topped up their cards will no longer be able to get any food. I understand the council's position in this, but it can't be right, in my view, that a child will go hungry in school because someone, somewhere along the line, has forgotten or cannot afford to pay for the dinner money that particular week.
I'm particularly concerned that this is sorted out before the introductionof universal credit, which is going to happen in Powys in June. We all know about the delays in people getting their money and I'm really, really concerned that, in this system, that could cause an absolute failure for those people expecting that money to be in place and their children to be fed, which will not happen. I therefore respectfully ask you, First Minister, if you could have a word with your two Cabinet Secretaries to try and sort this out. There's an urgency that it's done before June.

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. I'm more than happy to pursue that. My own son's school introduced cashless payments this term, which I have to say, saved on scrambling around for pound coins every week, which is what tended to happen in our house. The important point is this: I don't think it would be right that if there's no credit in a child's account, as it were, that that child should not have a meal as a result of that. There should be a system in place where parents are reminded in a timely fashion as to what the balance is on that account and not find out about it when the account has nothing in it. Certainly, I'll ask the Cabinet Secretaryfor Education to take this up and to reply to my friend and colleague in further detail.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Russell George AC: As I understand it, First Minister, different local authorities across Wales use different payment methods, which does sometimes cause a problem when children move schools.I wonder if you believe that there is rationale in standardising payment methods across Wales.

Carwyn Jones AC: I think there is rationale in that. First of all, of course, it makes sense for there to be a standard system across a local education authority area. Of course, we have local management of schools, but it would seem strange to parents that, if a child moved schools somehow there would then be a problem with having a different account with a different balance in it or not having a cashless system. I think it's fair to say that we should move towards a standardised system in future.

Children and Young People's Continuing Care Guidance

Hefin David AC: 4. Will the First Minister make a statement on plans for the replacement of the Welsh Government's Children and Young People's Continuing Care Guidance 2012? OAQ51636

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes. We are setting up a multi-agency task and finish group that will consult upon and produce revised continuing care guidance for children and young people by the spring of next year.

Hefin David AC: I'm really pleased that the task and finish group has been set up. This is the document. Constituency AMs, and I'm sure regional AMs, get many people who are concerned about the transition from childhood to adulthood for those children needing continuing healthcare. This document is responsible for guidance for children. This document, a separate document, is responsible for guidance for adulthood. The children's document says that eligibility for adult CHC at the age of 17 should be determined by multidisciplinary, multi-agency teams, whereas this document says that the same thing should be approved by local health boards. So, there are clear anomalies between the two documents, and that's not the only one. I think it's really important that not only is this guidance reviewed, but also this guidance, in tandem, and that other stakeholders beyond health boards are involved, including the children's commissioner.

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes, I agree. My understanding is that adult CHC services—the transition to those services has to commence when an individual is aged 14. LHBs have the responsibility to draw up a robust local transition policy with partner agencies. That includes local authorities. There will be some issues that will be outside the scope of the local health board—for example, the responsibility for meeting any ongoing educational needs. The Member is right to say that, as we look to revise the guidance for young people, it's massively important that, as that guidance is revised, there is then a seamless transition to adulthood, so that that kind of problem, where people can't access services in the same way or there's a barrier they can't get over, so those barriers are eliminated.

Shropdoc

Russell George AC: 5. Will the First Minister make a statement on the services provided to the people of Powys by Shropdoc? OAQ51594

Carwyn Jones AC: Powys Teaching Local Health Board currently commission Shropdoc to provide GP out-of-hours services to the people of Powys.

Russell George AC: Thank you, First Minister. You'll be aware, of course, that Powys doesn't have a district general hospital, which makes it all the more important to my constituents that there is an excellent out-of-hours GP service. The current out-of-hours service is run by Shropdoc, and the health board has said that they want to end that service and the contract with Shropdoc and replace it with the 111 out-of-hours service by this spring. I have no doubt in my own mind that neither the health board nor any other organisation can currently provide the same level of support as Shropdoc provides. Shropdoc also provide services to GP practices, and I think there's a real significant risk here that some GP practices could fold if those services are no longer available. It seems that the health board hasn't properly consulted on these proposals or consulted GPs correctly.
So, can I ask: has the Welsh Government exerted any influence over the health board in changing to a 111 model? Can you give any assurance to my constituents that any change would not be detrimental to them? And, if you can't give that assurance, will you examine this situation in Powys?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, the situation has arisen because Shropdoc itself has faced financial challenges during 2017. Those challenges do remain. As a result, the health board have been working with Shropdoc and the English clinical commissioning groups to support them while they address those challenges. I understand that the health board did establish a taskforce to assess and deliver potential alternative solutions for the provision of out-of-hours services in Powys. That taskforce has developed short- and medium-term plans. The current contract with Shropdoc does end, I understand, in the spring, so there is an opportunity there now to work on new models and to work with Shropdoc itself. This is a situation that's not been chosen by the health board, but there have been challenges that have been placed before them as a result of Shropdoc's own financial situation, which we hope can be resolved.

Simon Thomas AC: As has just been mentioned, many of the residents of Powys are reliant on services that are either provided from England or are located in England. Given the news that I'm hearing that there is a delay in terms of a decision on the location of the general hospitalfor the west of Shropshire, wherever that is to be located—it’s an argument between Telford and Shrewsbury itself, which is ongoing, and there has been no money from the Westminster Government yet to invest in that—what discussions are you having as Government—because it’s beyond the health board, to be honest—with the Government in England to ensure that those services continue to be available and there is no gap in the services provided in Powys?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, the health board have been in discussion with Shropshire and also Telford and Wrekin in order to work with them to develop new services, if that’s the path they choose to take, and to see in what way they can support Shropdoc to be sustainable in the long term. So, those discussions have taken place between the health board and also the organisations in England.

Caroline Jones AC: First Minister, Shropdoc has provided out-of-hours GP services to Powys for 22 years, but, like every part of the NHS, they've also felt financial pressures. The decision not to renew the contract is extremely disappointing, as Shropdoc have provided one of the best out-of-hours services in the country and provided a first-class service to the people of Powys. First Minister, can you assure this Chamber that the decision to end the Shropdoc contract was not financially motivated and can you assure the people of Powys that the replacement service will be as good, if not better, than the out-of-hours service provided by Shropdoc?

Carwyn Jones AC: That's what we want to do, but Shropdoc, remember, has financial problems of its own and that's the reason why this situation has arisen. One of the concerns as well is that the two English clinical commissioning groups that currently commission Shropdoc will re-tender during 2018 and, of course, it's important that both sides of the border work together in order to commission a new service. But this is not a situation where the health board have chosen to be in a position where they want to offload Shropdoc, if I can put it that way. It's because of Shropdoc's financial challenges that the situation has arisen. But everybody wants to get to a situation where the service is at least as good as the service that currently exists.

Artificial Intelligence and Automation

Lee Waters AC: 6. Will the First Minister establish a unit to explore how Wales can harness artificial intelligence and automation? OAQ51639

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, automation, innovation and digitalisation form one of the cornerstones of the economic action plan, and we're focusing our investment to support businesses to prepare for the challenges of tomorrow and futureproofing our economy and workforce.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you, First Minister. I welcome the fact that the new economic action plan includes, as one of the criteria for supporting new businesses, adaptingto automation, but the implications of automation go way beyond that. It's estimated that some 700,000 jobs are at risk, and they hit upon every single portfolio. So, would you now look at how you can co-ordinate efforts by establishing a unit to explore opportunities so we can support the people who are going to be impacted by automation and also explore the opportunities for Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: Yes, it's a tricky one isn't it? Does there come a point where automation is so comprehensive that there aren't enough people with money in their pockets to buy what the robots make? When does that point come? Nobody knows; we've not been in the situation before. But he asks an important question: how do we look to cope and deal with and to prosper from the changes that will come in the future? Well, we are already examining the impact of technology and data on public service delivery—for example, the digital and data group provides a forum for sharing best practice on that. It's part of the economic action plan and we do engage regularly with businesses and stakeholders to discuss the potential impact and opportunities of digital technologies. If we look at innovative tech, well, of course, we're already considering the opportunities of artificial intelligence: M7 Managed Services, in partnership with IBM, opened an artificial intelligence centre of competence last December and, of course, the centre of excellence in mobile and emerging technologies at the University of South Wales is working with businesses to see how businesses can benefit from the challenges of the future, meet those challenges, and, of course, continue to provide jobs for people.

Nick Ramsay AC: First Minister, I think Lee Waters made a very good point, and I agree with most of your answer there. Yesterday, I attended the Severn growth summit at the Celtic Manor. The summit looked at ways of developing the economy of south-east Wales, particularly now in the light of, first, the reduction in, and then the decision to abolish, the Severn bridge tolls later in the year. First Minister, there's a tremendous mood of optimism surrounding some of these imminent changes and there's also a real desire to use it as a stimulus to develop a high-tech economy in south-east Wales from the border along to Cardiff, and, hopefully, further. In terms of the unit that Lee Waters mentioned, would you look at potentially siting that within that area so that, when these changes happen to the road network and changes to the Severn bridge, for instance, there is a real—that this is used as an impetus to make sure that the economy is developed in the future in a way that is developing the high-tech sector and the areas that Lee Waters mentioned?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I've already mentioned two examples there of centres that have been put in place in order to deal with and meet the challenges of thefuture, and, of course, much of this will be driven by the higher education sector, so, many of these centres, in the future, will be run by them. But there's no doubt at all that we want to encourage cross-border economic working. It happens everywhere else in the world, so why wouldn't it happen between Wales and England? If that leads to joint prosperity between the south-east of Wales and the south-west of England then so be it. One of the problems, of course, is that the south-west of England doesn't have a body that we can talk to in the same way as we can talk to Scotland or Northern Ireland. Certainly, that'san issue that will need to be resolved in the future.

Gareth Bennett AC: Yes, it's good that this issue is being addressed at a governmental level. However, there is recent evidence that companies like Tesco are now losing a lot more money from shoplifting since bringing in automation in the form of self-scanning machines. Is there now a case for theWelsh Government to work with those companies in trying to move away from unnecessary automation and go back towards hiring real people to do jobs?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, I mean—. In reality, shoplifting increased when self-service was introduced, probably about 17 years ago, into supermarkets. They accept it as part of—. I mean, they obviouslylook to catch shoplifters, but they accept it as part of their business models. I think a variety of options should be available for people. For some people, they want to physically go through a checkout, for others, they want to checkout automatically at the end, for others, they want to go around with a scanner. Having those choices is important for people, especially at busy times when the automated services take a lot of pressure off the services that people are using when they physically go through a checkout.

Universal Credit

Jane Hutt AC: 7. Will the First Minister make a statement on the impact of the roll-out of universal credit in Wales? OAQ51608

Carwyn Jones AC: I'm extremely concerned about the severe issues with universal credit, such as the impact of the changes to payment of housing support, and the impact they're having on rent arrears. We have expressed our concerns to the UK Government, calling for a halt to the roll-out of universal credit.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. Disabled people and single parents and women havebeen amongst the biggest losers under seven years of austerity, according to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, standing to lose around 10 per cent of their income by 2022 due to tax and benefit changes since 2010. The roll-out of the flawed universal credit, with its unacceptable payment delays, as you've said, has pushed many people into debt, rent arrears and eviction. Of course, the Member for Torfaen, Lynne Neagle, has fed back on the Torfaen experience.Also, young people aged 18 to 21 have also lost out under universal credit, with housing benefit withdrawn. I don't know if Members are aware thatthe Children's Society has highlighted the UK Government'sproposals to introduce an earnings threshold for eligibility to free school meals under universal credit, restricting free school meals to families with net earnings under £7,400 per year.With universal credit expected to be fully rolled out this year in the Vale of Glamorgan and other parts of Wales, what support is the Welsh Government giving to our advice services, such as Cardiff and Vale Citizens Advice, which will be bearing the brunt of supporting people adversely affected by universal credit?

Carwyn Jones AC: We have provided £5.97 million of grant funding for this year. That funding will continue in the next financial year. It's for three projects: front-line advice services, Better Advice, Better Lives, and Communities First shared outcomes projects. They ensure access to free and independent social welfare advice across Wales and, as I said, that will continue into the next financial year.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: In his budget last November, the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced changes to the universal credit system. These include the removal of the seven waiting days before a claimant can apply for universal credit, significant improvement to the advanced payment system, including increasing the amount available, and changes to support people with their rent payments when moving from housing benefit.Does the First Minister agree with the chief executive of the Citizens Advice bureaux who said that these changes are a very welcome step and will make significant differences to people claiming universalcredit in Wales?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, it shouldn't have been messed up in the first place, should it? That's an admission that what was put in place at the very beginning wasn't thought through properly and ended up with a lot of people in debt. We still have evidence from housing associations to Citizens Advice that shows that rent arrears are still a problem for people on universal credit. There are other issues as well that surround the implementation of universal credit, such a lack of awareness concerning alternative payment arrangements and access to advance payments. So, those problems still remain.

Bethan Sayed AC: First Minister, the Scottish Government, as part of the Smith Commission, will see yet again more powers over welfare being devolved to their Government. In the past, your Government has said that you don't want to have powers over welfare because of the cost implications, but, as we've rehearsed time and time again in debates here in the National Assembly for Wales, we have been led to understand that the fiscal framework for those powers will be transferredto the Scottish Government, and therefore the cost of administrating those welfare benefits will be transferred, alongside the powers. Will you therefore change your mind on this? We can stand here and moan about how welfare will affect our citizens, and I agree with you on that, but can we take responsibility here in Wales for those welfare powers if we are better at doing it than Westminster?

Carwyn Jones AC: Well, the answer to the question lies in the election of a Labour Government in Westminster that is committed to fairness, to social justice and to opportunity. We must be very careful in divorcing ourselves from the welfare system that exists across GB. Why? Because we’re net beneficiaries. At the end of the day, if we end up in the situation where we have to finance our own welfare system, we will be worse off in terms of the money that’s available.

Bethan Sayed AC: I didn’t say that though.

Carwyn Jones AC: So, we have to be careful not to move along that path and be in a position where we end up taking on powers that we then don’t have the money to finance. That’s the issue for us. We know that the UK Governmenthas a record of agreeing to the transfer of powers without the transfer of the finances, and that’s the question we need to answer.

Sustainability of Bus Services

Jenny Rathbone AC: 8. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the sustainability of current bus services in Wales? OAQ51635

Carwyn Jones AC: We are working with the industry and others to develop long-term sustainability by developing integrated networks such as the metro in north and south Wales. We will look, when the powers are devolved, at a better and more sustainable structure for bus services in Wales.

Jenny Rathbone AC: My constituents are looking forward to the trams and the light rail systems that the metro will bring, but in the meantime people rely on buses to get themselves to work and to school. Cardiff Bus is the municipal bus service and they are being subjected to aggressive assaults by private companies that are simply cherry-picking the routes that are the most profitable. The Transport Act 1985 does not allowthe cross-subsidy of one route by revenue from another, and I just wondered what the Government’s plans are for ensuring the sustainability of a network of sustainable services for all our citizens, particularly those who don’t have a car, and what model of delivery we need and what legislation we might need.

Carwyn Jones AC: We cannot continue with a system where, unless services are subsidised, they can be altered or removed almost at the drop of a hat. I remember, not so long ago, in Ceredigion, where Arriva pulled out of the provision of bus services there at very short notice, and then it was left to other private operators to step in and fill the gap. That is not a sustainable way of running bus services. Nor is it right that, in many parts of Wales, there is only one provider, and that provider is a private provider that can charge, effectively, what it wants. This is another one of the myths that was peddled by the Tories in the 1980s and beyond: that, in transport, there can be competition. Well, for many people in Wales there is no competition when it comes to buses. There's certainly no competition when it comes to trains. People are paying over the odds for private monopolies. That situation cannot continue, and the Cabinet Secretary and I and the Government will be looking at ways of ensuring that, in the future, we have a bus network that is publicly supported both financially and by the people of Wales, and not one that is fragmented and overpriced.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, I’ve received comments from a local bus operator in Pembrokeshire who has expanded his business following the closure of another bus company in the county, but unfortunately the operator is having difficulty in upgrading his infrastructure. Of course, I accept that local authority budgets are tight, but given the important service that more and more bus companies are providing across Wales and the fact that they provide jobs locally, what assistance can the Welsh Government offer bus companies such as this one to safeguard their viability for the future and therefore secure the sustainability of bus services, particularly in rural areas?

Carwyn Jones AC: How many companies have we seen over the years go to the wall? We’ve seen many. We must reconsider the structure of bus services. That means, for example, whether it's possible to have a system of franchises—it won’t work on a local government level; I think that would be too small—to ensure that the companies have to deliver the service at the price that was agreed and that that’s sustainable for years to come. We’ve got to move away from the system we have at present where, for the majority of the people of Wales, one company runs the services and they decide on which ones will work without any kind of input or permission from local people. That has to change. We must consider that there’s no competition in most parts of Wales. We’ll have to move to a kind of system that is much more sustainable and will ensure that we don’t see services just falling apart, very often, as we have seen over the past years.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Does the First Minister think that it's acceptable that there are no rush-hour buses from Wrexham industrial estate—one of the largest industrial estates in Europe—into Wrexham town centre? Thousands of workers are being left high and dry by a non-existenttransport service. You either have to clock off early, or you have to hang around for an hour to catch the bus home. Now, you can talk as much as you like about your occasional bus summits. You can show us fancy maps about a so-called north Wales metro transport system, or, of course, you can tell us that you're serious about this. Is this acceptable? Because people are telling me it's not. I'm sure everybody here would believe it's not. Why is Wrexham suffering from sub-standard services in this respect? And why doesn't the largest industrial estate, or one of the largest industrial estates in Europe, not have what is a basic service?

Carwyn Jones AC: Why doesn't he take it up with the councils? The councils are responsible for subsidising bus services. And he is right; do I think it's acceptable? [Interruption.] Do I think it's acceptable? No, I don't; I think he's right. But the reality is, as he knows full well, we don't have control over the buses yet. Now, there's no point pretending—[Interruption.] Not even the leader of the opposition knows that, apparently, based on the comment he's just given—that we don't have responsibility over the buses yet. I want to see, for the people of Wrexham and those who are commuting to Wrexham industrial estate, a proper, integrated, sustainable transport service, via the north-east Wales metro, using trains, using buses, to ensure that the situation that he's described—which is not acceptable—does not continue in the future as it has done, after 30 years of Tory transport misrule.

Thank you, First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the leader of the house, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There are no changes to this week's business. Businessfor the next three weeks is shown in the business statement and announcementfound amongst the meeting papers, which are available to Members electronically.

Jane Hutt AC: Leader of the house, Chwarae Teg has highlighted that Iceland has become the first country in the world to legally enforce equal pay between men and women. Will the leader of the house update on how the Welsh Government will use legislation to help tackle the shocking gap in gender pay, which has widened by 23 per cent in the past five years according to a report this week, as well as how the Welsh Government is supporting Chwarae Teg'sFairPlay Employer initiative?

Julie James AC: Thank you for that. It's absolutely splendid to see that Iceland has indeed legislated to get equal pay. Of course, we've had an equal pay Act in the United Kingdom for quite some time, and we know that that hasn't led to the equality of pay that we'd like to have seen. In Wales, we've introduced legislation to help address the gender pay gap in the public sector. Of course, unfortunately, we don't have the power to do that in the private sector. The UK Government has introduced regulations on gender pay gap reporting for large employers in the private and voluntary sectors across Great Britain—250 employees or above, I understand—and we are actually exploring ways in which we can get a voluntary agreement here, in social partnership with our businesses, to see if we can extend that lower down the structures in Wales, because a large number of the companies in Wales are, of course, SMEs. Myself and the Cabinet Secretary for Finance have been looking at ways to do that using our procurement powers as well, for quite some time.
Chwarae Teg's initiative is indeed a very interesting one. I chair the fair work board, and we are looking at ways in which we can introduce such examples. We will be shortly making recommendations about a fair work commission in Wales, and I know that Chwarae Teg'sproposals will be looked at very seriously there as a way of extending the service. I'd also like to recommend programmes like the Agile Nation 2 project, which Chwarae Teg runs. I've been, myself, to see the effect on the women who undertake those programmes. I believe the average pay rise for the women who've gone through that programme is about £3,000, which is amazing, and it shows you what you can do when you increase people's powers to understand what their rights can be in the workplace. But there's no doubt that it's a continuing problem. It's a very important thing that we're doing to make sure that the public sector here in Wales leads the way, both by example and by our spending power, to see what else we can do in Wales while the UK Government fails to act.

Paul Davies AC: Leader of the house, I'd be grateful if you could please ask the Cabinet Secretary for health to bring forward two statements, please. The first statement is in relation to Hywel Dda health board's new service change proposals, which have already been raised in this Chamber this afternoon. Now, some of these proposals could result in services being further centralised away from Pembrokeshire, and some of these proposals could even result in Withybush hospital being completely shut down in the future. Members will know that I have consistently raised this issue in the past, highlighting the effects of centralising services on other departments, which, in turn, make those more vulnerable in the future. Indeed, I've often been accused of scaremongering, and it seems that's going on here again today when raising the knock-on effect of centralising services on hospitals in west Wales. It seems as though those concerns are quickly becoming a reality, given that some of the options considered by Hywel Dda health board would see Withybush hospital removed in its entirety. Now, the option of closing the hospital, in my opinion, should not even be considered, and this will be totally unacceptable to the people that I represent. It's now important that we hear from the Welsh Government on what its position is regarding this very serious matter.
I listened carefully to the First Minister's answers earlier, which suggested that the Welsh Government does not have a view at all. Surely the Welsh Government is responsible for health services in Wales, and I'm very concerned that the Government is washing its hands when it comes to health services in west Wales. During the last Assembly election, it wasn't the governing party's policy to close Withybush hospital. So, it's only reasonable that the Government now tells the people that I represent what its view is regarding the future of Withybush hospital. Therefore, can you please encourage the Cabinet Secretary for health to bring forward an urgent statement regarding the future delivery of health services in west Wales, and in particular Pembrokeshire, as soon as possible? Because the Welsh Government should put on record its position on this serious issue.
Secondly, can I also ask the Cabinet Secretary for health for a statement on the Welsh Government's recruitment strategy for medical professionals in west Wales? St Clement's surgery in Neyland, in my constituency, has submitted an application for closure to the local health board due, in part, to staffing shortages, highlighting once again why more action needs to be taken to attract medical professionals to posts in west Wales. This is a very serious issue for the people that I represent, given that we've seen other problems with recruiting GPs in Goodwick, in the north of my constituency. Therefore, can you please impress upon the Cabinet Secretary for health to bring forward a statement outlining the Welsh Government's recruitment strategy for the area—[Interruption.]—so that closures like this, as a result of staff shortages, do not continue to occur in the future?
Llywydd, I can hear some Labour Members laughing at these very serious matters. [Interruption.] They should be ashamed of themselves.

Julie James AC: Thank you for those two questions, both of which were more like speeches. I think that's what the Labour Members were commenting on. [Interruption.] In terms of the first one, you asked a question of the First Minister, and the Cabinet Secretary for health is here to hear your statement or question again to me, but there is obviously a due process to go through with the consultation. I'm surprised the Member thinks that we should have an opinion on a consultation that is extant before the end of the consultation. We take consultations extremely seriously. Once the consultation is finished and we've had a proper process to look at the results of the consultation, I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will come forward with the results of the consultation and the Government's response to that consultation at that time.
On the second point, you made the point earlier and you've made it again now. I don't really think it was a question. The Cabinet Secretary heard the points you made,as did everybody else.

Simon Thomas AC: May I start by asking for an update on road safety, specifically on the A487? The leader of the house may recall that, around a fortnight ago, there was a fatal accident between Gellilydan and Maentwrog when a baby and her aunt died in a car. I extend my sympathies to the family and the local community, who are grieving because of that accident. But specifically, in looking at the figures, there have been 26 accidents on that one stretch of road. For those who are familiar with it, it's the bends going down the hill between Gellilydan and Maentwrog. There have been 26 accidents in just a year—that is, in the last full year. So, just to reduce the possibility of further serious accidents on this stretch of road, I would ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary looking into road safety. Local people, specifically, are asking for a temporary reduction in the speed limit whilst they look at other means of making the road safer. It's worth bearing in mind that other stretches of this road between north and south Wales have been made safer recently through Welsh Government investment, but this stretch has remained as it was in the days of the stagecoach, in fact, and we certainly need to look at the safety of that road.

Simon Thomas AC: The second point I'd like to raise is just to put on record my thanks to many who worked over the weekend. We had floods, again, in many parts of west Wales. Ceredigion was particularly affected. I certainly couldn't complete a journey on Sunday myself because I was turned back by the police, and I know that in Tenby, as well, there were some serious flood problems on the eastern road out of Tenby. These things do happen. We do have bad surface water problems in Wales, but sometimes they can be addressed by better engineering and some better appreciation of how you do some soft engineering as well around how we deal with floods. So, in thanking people for their hard work—council staff and officials and the police as well—it would be good, I think, perhaps not immediately, but within the next few weeks, to have a chance to reflect as an Assembly, either through a statement or through a debate, on what we're doing to deal with flooding, and mitigating some of the effects of climate change as part of that, and what specifically the Welsh Government has planned for helping some communities to identify problems and seek to try and address them.

Julie James AC: On the A487, I also want to extend our sympathies to the family. Our thoughts are very much with all of those affected by what was an appalling traffic incident. I know the Cabinet Secretary feels very strongly about his commitment to improving road safety and reducing the number of people killed or seriously injured on Welsh roads. I haven't had the opportunity to discuss a reduction in speed limits with him. I'd be very grateful if the Member would write to the Cabinet Secretary suggesting that in particular. I'm sure he'll take that very seriously, as I know he has expressed his sympathies to the families of those affected. It was a very serious incident.
In terms of the flooding, absolutely there were floods. It was torrential rain, I'm sure we'd all agree, on Sunday, and there were floods absolutely everywhere. I also had a journey interrupted by flooding. Again, I think the Cabinet Secretary for the environment and the Cabinet Secretary for transport are taking that very seriously, and we will be considering a way of bringing that onto the floor of the Assembly, because it's a very serious issue for a large number of us in Wales.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Leader of the house, we've heard that the First Minister is very keen to ensure that we have a sustainable, publicly supported bus service in Wales, but we've also heard that, in many parts of Wales, including in Cardiff, we are seeing an increasingly deteriorating current bus system. It was back in May that the Government completed its bus consultation. I appreciate that you're waiting for the UK Government to transfer the powers that we need to Transport for Wales to commission services, but in the meantime is it possible to have a debate about the possible models of a future bus system, whether it's by franchising whole communities or whether it's through publicly supported or community-supported systems of bus service delivery?

Julie James AC: The Member is quite right; our consultation ended on 31 May last year. That had a number of outline proposals to improve the planning and delivery of local bus services. Seventy-five per cent of respondents to that consultation expressed a preference that our reforms should enable local authorities to introduce some kind of bus franchising in their area to be more responsive to local need. The Cabinet Secretary is going to hold another public consultation, this time on the detailed proposals that came out of the first consultation, along with some others, including some of the things that the Member just raised. And I think his intention is to announce that public consultation in the Chamber at that time. So, I'm sure that will be being brought forward.
It is worth reminding ourselves, as the First Minister touched on this earlier as well, that local authorities already have a range of powers available to exert more influence over bus services. For example, they can make a ticketing scheme; in my own local authority, through-ticketing has been a big issue, and that's been successful in parts of Swansea and in Gower. There are also voluntary agreements that can be made with bus operators to co-ordinate investment in different schemes, and to make statutory enforceable bus quality partnership schemes. So, we're not without any powers at the local authority level, but we will be consulting on further powers, as they transfer to us in due course.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Leader of the house, may I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport on what he is doing to deliver closer links between south-east Wales and Bristol and the west country? Yesterday, the Secretary of State for Wales, Alun Cairns, held a Severn growth summit in Newport on how we can develop economic links, building on the reduction of tolls on the Severn crossing prior to their abolition. Can I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary confirming that the Welsh Government will work with the UK Government in developing links to improve living standards and job prospects in south-east Wales?
And my second statement, from the same Minister, I'll be grateful if you ask—Transport Wales have made some plans, but one very important organisation called Bus Users Cymru was not even consulted. That organisation actually have views, they have concerns, they have strategies, and they have technical matters to talk about. And last year they put more than 430 complaints, and they were all taken care of—most of them. So, their input is very vital for our bus users, especially for our senior citizens, and not very able people. So, I'd be very grateful if you ask the Minister to make a statement on Bus Users Cymru Wales in this Chamber, please.

Julie James AC: Well, the Cabinet Secretary has been having an extensive set of meetings around the Severn area, and the abolition of the tolls and so on. I know that he has a large number of issues going on in that particular area. I wasn't aware of the Bus Users Cymru consultation point. I do suggest the Member writes to the Cabinet Secretary and highlights that issue. I don't think it's an issue for a statement in the house, but I'm sure that the Cabinet Secretary will respond to a query as to, if they have been left out of a consultation, why that happened and so on. I'm afraid I don't know the specific answer to that.
As I said in response to Jenny Rathbone, there will be a further consultation about the whole bus situation, and that will be part of an integrated transport network, and,obviously, it does impact on the integrated transport network as well. And I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will be taking that into account as he brings forward the consultation on the specifics of the bus network.

Bethan Sayed AC: We've had a written statement in the last few days on steel procurement, which I do welcome. But I was wondering whether we could have an oral or a written statement on the other elements of the agreement with Plaid Cymru that we made with regard to the steel industry, specifically on the funding for a power plant? I'm just curious as to where we stand on this. We've seen in the last week issues with regard to problems with pension advice, and I wanted to be assured, and to make the workers assured, that the changes to their pensions have not been in vain. And so, an update on the power plant, and also an update on research and development, would be welcomed.
And my second request would be to also have an update on the response of the Welsh Government to the Equality, Local Government and CommunitiesCommittee's report on asylum seekers and refugees. Tomorrow, I'm hosting an event in the Senedd regarding Wales as a sanctuary for asylum seekers and refugees, and in that report we didrecommend that Wales becomes a nation of sanctuary. So, I was wondering ifwe could have an update on progress of that report, considering that there is a lot of interest in this from that sector, and a lot of enthusiasm, actually, from asylum seekers and refugees across Wales.

Julie James AC: Answering those in reverse, that one is part of my portfolio responsibility. I did recently meet with several of the groups involved in that report. I am hoping to pop into your event tomorrow, and we are very favourably looking at that, and I will be very shortly reporting on our response to that report. We had a really good meeting witha large number of the groups, umbrella organisations and so on. So, I will be bringing forward a response on that very shortly. I am popping into Julie Morgan's Holocaust memorial event on the steps of the Senedd for Gypsy/Travellers tomorrow as well, but I hope to get to both of them. It's great to see two such great events in the Senedd tomorrow.
In terms of the steel research and the development of that, that is under discussion. I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will be bringing forward—and, to be honest, I don't know if it's a statement or a debate—but we will be bringing forward something very shortly to update Members on that and where we are, and the importance of it to the workers. Certainly, David Rees is always on my case about where we're going with that, and the Member also is, so we will be doing that very shortly as well.

Mick Antoniw AC: Leader of the house, Brexit, as you'll probably be aware, is entering a particularly acute phase. We have had Nigel Farage calling for a second referendum. We've even had the leader of UKIP in the Assembly, Neil Hamilton, saying on the radio that if facts change, you have to vote again, although I think he was referring to the UKIP leadership. But bearing in mind the phase that we're actually entering now, would it be appropriate for the Welsh Government to have, say, fortnightly statements on the current state of Brexit? It's very important that we are kept up to date and that there is an ongoing debate as things are moving very, very quickly, and these are matters of fundamental importance to this Assembly and to the UK as a whole.

Julie James AC: Yes, the Member is absolutely right—it is extremely important. I find myself in the uncomfortable position of slightly agreeing with Nigel Farage, but there we are—that's not a place you would very often want to be. The Welsh Government is extremely eager to build on I think our excellent record of keeping the Assembly informed of the latest Brexit developments. Since the referendum result, we've been proactively updating the Assembly, for example, through written and oral statements, following Joint Ministerial Committee meetings, and significant events or developments. For example, we had three written statements during the last sitting week in December on different aspects of the European Union negotiations and policy—on the phase 1 agreement, on the JMC meeting on 12 December and the launch of our regional policy document. Also, both the First Minister and the Cabinet Secretary for Finance have been regularly reporting back on progress to the Assembly's committee system. 
As we move forward into the next phase of the negotiations, we'll continue to build on these established ways of updating the Assembly. However, the Member will know that we need to see really concrete proposals from the UK Government on the Welsh Government's level of engagement during the second phase of negotiations before we can outline in detail how we can ensure there is a fit-for-purpose set of arrangements in which the latest developments and actions taken by the Welsh Government can be reported at both levels. And we've made the case to the UK Government that the model for the second phase should follow the structure by which the UK conducts current EU business, underpinned by the principle that the UK Government will fully involve the devolved administrations in developing UK policy positions on EU issues, so that we can keep the Senedd informed appropriately.

Nick Ramsay AC: Leader of the house, I mentioned in First Minister's questions that I attended the packed Severn growth summit at the Celtic Manor Resort, which is looking at ways of building on changes such as the abolition of the Severn bridge tolls later in the year. Would it be possible to have a statement from the Welsh Government on how you also intend as a Government to work to develop the economy of south-east Wales in the light of these changes, and also look at the cross-border issues that the First Minister mentioned as well? It is important, I think, that we do as much as we can in the light of these changes to develop the economy of this part of Wales moving across the border.
Secondly, I'mcurrently sponsoring an exhibition of commemorative first world war quilts in the Pierhead building; some of you might have seen them already. There are two of them; they're stunning. They've been created, sewn and embroidered by schoolchildren from five schools in my constituency, and they really are worth a look. They've been made to commemorate the 100 years since the end of the first world war, and we are now—it doesn't seem that long since we were commemorating the start of the great war—we are now commemorating the end of it. So, I make a plea to Assembly Members if they haven't yet, for the rest of this week to go and have a look at those quilts, but also if the Welsh Government could clarify exactly how you intend for us to commemorate the end of the great war. It clearly was a very significant and important part of history and one in which many people from Wales lost their lives in, and I think it's important that we have some guidance on where we're going in terms of commemorating the end of that conflict.

Julie James AC: Yes, two very important points. In terms of the Severn growth area, as I said to Mohammad Asghar earlier, there are a number of meetings around this—a very important point. The Cabinet Secretary I know has a number of issues outstanding there, and he is in discussion. He will be updating the Assembly as he goes along with those discussions. If the Memberhas anything very specific that came out of the conference that he was able to attend it would be really useful to know what those specific points are in order to be able to address them.
In terms of the commemorative quilts, I am hoping to get across to that as well. I think that's such a brilliantinitiative and I commend the Member on having sponsored it. I haven't been able to get over there yet but I really hope to. It's a really good way of doing it. We will be bringing forward some commemorative events and so on in due course, because the Member is absolutely right—a large number of people from Wales fought bravely and some lost their lives, of course, in the great war. It's very important that we commemorate those people but also that we teach our youngsters about the effects of such a global war and the ramifications, both at home and abroad, of such things. I'm very grateful to the Member for having raisedsuch an important issue.

Vikki Howells AC: Leader of the house, I'd like to requestan update from the Welsh Government on the financial inclusion strategy for Wales. I've recently received a very useful report from my local citizens advice bureau on the effects of the closure of the last bank in town on the community of Mountain Ash. As Aberdare has also been affected by closures with three large banks closing in the last year—including the Co-operative Bank, which announced its closure just last week—I think this is a timely opportunity for us to reflect on the strategy, as many other communities, I know, are experiencing exactly the same. But it also allows us to consider the most appropriate interventions to ensure all members of our community can access those banking services formerly available on local high streets.

Julie James AC: The Member raises an extremely importantpoint. We are promoting financial inclusion and it's very much a key priority of the Welsh Government, and, of course, Bethan Jenkins was very instrumental in bringing that issue forward as well. We're working very hard with partner organisations though the financial inclusion steering group to take forward the wide range of actions in the delivery plan and we will be reporting back on progress in the next few months.
In terms of bank closures, the Member'sabsolutely right. We've all been discussing bank closures in our own constituency areas and regions, and a large number of us have raised issues with local bank managers when banks have been earmarked for closure. It's really disappointing, some of the responses that you get about the affected communities and so on. It's worth pointing out that Post Office Counters does provide banking services in some areas, so certainly in my own constituency and in the other two, Gower and SwanseaEast constituencies, we've had some meetings that have been very useful, together, about how to deal with that. But we continue to be very disappointed about it.
One of the things that we're also doingis trying to make sure that our digital inclusion plan includes banking online, especially for older people who might be excluded from the online services that are being used largely to replace the high-street services. I don't suggest for one single minute that they are a proper replacement and I know the Member's been pushing hard to keep some of the banks open in her area, as we all have. But it is important that, where the services are being reduced, people can actually properly be enabled in the technology that allows them to continue to bank at home when that's what the issue is, although it doesn't help the small businesses who want to be able to bank cash and so on, which is a huge issue.
There's also an issue about automated teller machine closures, which I don't know if the Member knows. There's an issue about the amount of money people are paid to run an ATM and how that might be situated, so we are having a look at that to see if there's anything we can do to assist in that regard as well, in terms of ATM availability. There are plenty of places across Wales where you're now having to travel quite a long way just to get cash as well, which is a big problem.
So, I thank the Member very much for highlighting that important point. We are in some discussion about how we can ameliorate some of the effects of those closures.

Darren Millar AC: Can I call for two statements from the leader of the house, the first from the Cabinet Secretary for health on emergency department performance across Wales? The latest figures, of course, are very, very poor indeed. Unfortunately, yet again, the health board that iscurrently being run by the Welsh Government is the worst performing of all of the health boards in Wales against the four-hour target. In fact, you've just got a four in 10 chance of being in and out of that department in over the four-hour target, which is clearlyunacceptable for the many hundreds of patients in my constituency and in others in northWales who are having to endure those overlong periods in very busy emergency departments. So, I think it is necessary that we have a statement on emergency department performance, particularly given the situation, the crisis, that appears to be developing ins some of our hospitals.
Can I also call for a statement, probably from you, actually, as the Minister responsible for faith communities?I heard, obviously,your comments regarding Holocaust Memorial Day. I had the privilege of attending a Holocaust memorial event in Llandudno over the weekend and listened to Dr Martin Stern, a Holocaust survivor. He shared a very powerful and moving story and gave an account of his experiences during the Holocaust and those of his family. Obviously, Holocaust survivors are becoming fewer and fewer in number. I'm particularly interested, Cabinet Secretary, in what work the Welsh Government is doing to expose as many young people as possible to those first-hand accounts from Holocaust survivors while we still have people with us who are able to share first-hand stories. I know that the Welsh Government's done some good work on this in the past in terms of supporting young people to visit places like Auschwitz and to take part in Holocaust memorial events, but there's nothing like meeting a Holocaust survivor and hearing their first-hand account to actually transform people's thinking on the Holocaust and to tackle the growing problem that we have across the world with Holocaust denial.

Julie James AC: In terms of the health statement, the Cabinet Secretary is going to bring forward a statement on the NHS over the winter period, and I'm sure it will encompass some of the issues that you've raised. He's nodding at me that it will, so he'll be doing that in the next few weeks.
In terms of faith communities and the Holocaust memorial issue, I completely agree with the Member that there's nothing like the first-hand account, but actually sometimes, in my own constituency for example, the daughter of one of the Holocaust survivors—who has herself given on many occasions powerful testimony but who has subsequently sadly passed on—is a very powerful advocate, if you like, for what her mother went through and has clearly been brought up in that knowledge. So, there are ways of passing the knowledge on. But I completely agree with you that it's essential that we make sure that everybody understands what happened and why it happened and how we must make sure that it never happens again.
I haven't considered bringing a statement forward, but I will consider what we can do to make sure that we hold that in the forefront of our minds. There are a number of activities planned, and I'd be very happy to update the Senedd, either by a statement or in some other fashion, when we've got those set out.

Julie Morgan AC: Leader of the house, I had two issues I wanted to raise. Last week, I helped launch a comic book aimed at five- and six-year-olds to encourage more of them, particularly girls—a subject I know is close to the Cabinet Secretary's heart—to study science, called Ada's Adventures in Science. This idea came from my constituent, Dr Edward Gomez, who is a lecturer at Cardiff University. Would it be possible to have a statement about what more can be done to plug the gap that Wales has in terms of the numbers of young people going on to study STEM subjects, particularly at A-level, as there is a big drop-off after GCSEs, and taking up science-based careers?
That was the first one. The second one is that, on Saturday, I held an event in my constituency to encourage people to take up cycling for everyday journeys, short journeys. We had an absolutely fantastic response from the community. Lots of issues came up, such as car-free cycle routes and places to shower when you get to your place of work. Of course, in Cardiff, we are having two big employers moving to the centre of Cardiff—HMRC and the BBC. Hopefully, many of those staff will cycle. So, could we have a statement about what the Welsh Government could do to encourage employers to promote cycling to work and provide facilities for cyclists, such as bike parking and showers?

Julie James AC: In terms of the first question that Julie Morgan asked, I've met with Dr Edward Gomez as well, and he's a very enthusiastic astrophysicist. The comic books are fantastic, and I will be discussing with the Cabinet Secretary for Education how we can make better use of such facilities, either in person or through Hwb, which is now out to about 70 per cent of Welsh schools. I had a very enthusiastic meeting with him about how we might take that forward, and they are indeed a brilliant resource.
The Member's absolutely right: we've got to find a way of getting more children interested in that kind of science career, especially girls. We have a range of things in place, but Dr Gomez is particularly great at enthusing younger children and making a really complex subject completely transparent and really interesting.So, I thought his approach to it was really excellent and I certainlywill be taking that forward with the Cabinet Secretary for Education.
I'm still chairing the women in STEM board for the Welsh Government, as well, so we will be looking at it there in terms of how we might enthuse girls in some of the more theoretical science subjects as well. He is a very interesting person for those of you who may not have met him; he's well worth a conversation.
In terms of the active travel stuff, that'sactually really important. The whole issue about cycling as a means of transport as opposed to recreational use is extremely important. The Member raises really good points about the preparedness of larger organisations in terms of facilities to park bikes securely and also to change and so on and be ready for work. We're working very hard with local authorities across Wales to improveactive travel through capital investment funding. The Cabinet Secretary for Economyand Transport will be making an announcementin due course about the outcome of some of those conversations and that investment, with exactly the point that the Member raises in mind. This is not about cycling because it's fun; it's about cycling as a means of getting from one place to the other in ahealthy and sustainable way, and it's particularly important in our big cities that we encourage that, in terms of theair quality debate that we've been havingrecently as well.
I just wanted to raise one other point, which is that there's a real issue around disability for cycling as well. I have a marvellous organisation in my own constituency, if theLlywydd will indulge me, called BikeAbility. It's a really excellent facilityfor people with physical disabilities who can also get active on their bicycles, and it's important that employers take that into account as well when they're designing these schemes.

Suzy Davies AC: Leader of thehouse, you probably picked up some of the media coverage today about the Older People's Commissioner for Wales's concerns about the experience of people living in care homes, some years after her original recommendations. And, while she was making some very positive remarks about the legislation that has been brought in since then and also the parliamentary review into health and social care, she did say that some very basic things like continence managementand—I can't remember what else it was, now—falls prevention were being missed. I'm wondering if we could have an update on progress from the Government against all the recommendations, but with specific focus on the ones that are being missed. Thank you.

Julie James AC: The Minister is here to hear that. I heard him on Radio Wales this morning alongside the Older People's Commissioner for Wales—they had quite a good debate on the subject. He's indicating to me that, within 28 days, we'll be bringing something forwardin response.

Neil McEvoy AC: Leader of the Chamber, on 22 March 2016, after the terrible terrorist attack in Brussels, the First Minister stated that he would like to express his sympathy and solidarity with theBelgian people. He went on to say that the scourge of terrorism must be opposed everywhere and we must resist the threat to our way of life.
I raised that statement today because it clearly shows a precedentfor this Government addressing foreign affairs. I'd likea statement from theGovernment on the brutal attack against the Kurds and others in Afrin in northern Syria. The Kurds have done all they can to fight the threat of terrorism that they face in Syria, and they've shown, time and time again, that they're Wales's allies in the middle east, and in over their hundreds, people were outside the Assembly today. The Kurds have a right to live in peace and this Assembly is the elected voice of the people of Wales. Will he make a statement from the Government to condemn the Turkish state terrorism in Syria and Kurdistan, and will you urge the UK Government to do everything it can diplomatically to put an end to the violence?

Julie James AC: The Member raises a very important point, but he's very well aware that we don't have foreign affairs devolved to us. The First Minister made a sympathy statement for the people of Belgium and I'm sure he would do something similar for everybody across theworld who is affected by terrorism. The Member has made his point very eloquently and I'm sure thatthe Assembly's heard it.

Dawn Bowden AC: Leader of the house, last week, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance gave a response to the urgent question regarding the collapse of Carillion. Many Members in this Chamber would echo the passionate way in which the Cabinet Secretary highlighted the weakness in the UK Government procurement policy that has contributed to the current mess that the public sector now, largely, has to deal with. Can I ask the leader of the house if the Cabinet Secretary for Finance would bring forward a more detailed statement on the lessons to be learned from the insolvency of Carillion, especially the lessons thatwe can learn here in Wales about how we procure services, and the scope that may exist for restoring some democratic control via direct labour organisations or by co-operative models of working?
Can I also ask that the failure of Carillion is examined to teach us more about the risks of such large-scale procurement activities and how it could lead us to reflect on the procurement work that we currently undertake? I think the whole Assembly would benefit from debating such a statement, and perhaps build a renewed consensus on the way forward so that we can benefit both Welsh businesses and Welsh taxpayers.

Julie James AC: Well, thank you for that very important point. The Cabinet Secretary did, indeed, make his points very passionately about the reason why we don't outsource public services and the effect of outsourcing into the private sector—the unintended effects that that can bring.Fortunately, here in Wales, we have not had the exposure to Carillion that has happened elsewhere in public services. The Cabinet Secretary is undertaking a review of procurement processes throughout the Welsh Government at the moment, and I'm sure he'll be reporting that back to the Assembly and taking these matters into account as part of that when he does so.

David Rees AC: Leader of the house, about 12 months ago, the then Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children actually indicated that he was withdrawing Communities First funding from NSA Afan due to an audit report that he'd received. He went on to say that further financial investigation would be undertaken. We've yet to hear anything since that date, and I understand that it's now been transferred to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance. Could I have a statement from the Welsh Government indicating where the progress is in relation to that investigation, because NSA Afan, obviously, has many activities going on in my constituency and they operate many community centres that would struggle if NSA Afan had difficulties?
On a second point, it's been raised before in this Chamber—about the situation of the flood zone on the site where the Baglan prison will be built. This weekend, as Simon Thomas has pointed out, heavy rain has come. We have seen floods all over the place, including on that particular site. Now, it's not just due to heavy rain on one day; it shows that the water levels and that the water table are high and, as such, they need to be addressed. Now, we understand the flood zone was moved from C2 to C1 because of a scheduled NRW reassessment—I understand that—but, based upon the events of the weekend, it's clear that another assessment needs to take place. It's been called for before. Can we have a statement from the Minister for Environment to say how reassessments are done and when they can be redone based upon circumstances?

Julie James AC: In terms of the first point, I understand that that's now with the police, and so we won't be commenting further on that. I think the Member's taking it up shortly in his own constituency. I'm sure he'll be able to keep us informed as to how that meeting goes, and we can make sure that the matter progresses.
In terms of the floods and the assessment of that, the Cabinet Secretary was fortunately here to hear your point on that, and I'm sure she'll take it into account in her discussions about reassessment on flood risk. Floods have been raised a number of times in this Chamber today, and it's a matter close to our hearts, so I'm sure she'll be considering that over the next few weeks.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Thank you very much.

3. Statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services: Progress on the New Treatment Fund

Item 3 on the agenda this afternoon is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services: progress on the new treatment fund. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services to introduce the statement—Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Last year, I launched the Welsh Government's £80 million new treatment fund. This was, of course, a key pledge to the people of Wales at the last Assembly election. My statement today highlights how the new treatment fund has delivered faster, more consistent access to new medicines. It marks a highly successful first full operational year of the fund.
The substantial, new investment in NHS Wales demonstrates the Welsh Government's commitment to ensuring that patients receive the latest recommended treatments quickly, no matter where they live in Wales. The underpinning principle of the new treatment fund is that all medicines recommended by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, or NICE, and the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group, or the AWMSG, must be made available to patients, where clinically appropriate, no later than two months from the publication of the recommendation. This represents a one third reduction in the required implementation timescale.
A positive recommendation by NICE or the AWMSG is a confirmation that the medicine has passed the rigorous test of both clinical and cost-effectiveness: the clinical benefits of the medicine are in balance with the cost that the manufacturer will charge to the NHS. This ensures good value for money for the public and, of course, our NHS.
The new treatment fund is providing health boards in Wales with £16 million a year to support that faster and more consistent access. To date, £28 million has been provided to health boards and Velindre NHS Trust to support the faster introduction of over 80 new medicines.

Vaughan Gething AC: These medicines have, of course, been approved by NICE or the AWMSG to treat a wide range of diseases. The list and scope of the therapeutic areas covered are too long for me to list here, but it includes medicines for a wide variety of treatment including arthritis, multiple sclerosis, epilepsy, asthma and rare conditions like Fabry disease.
Just over 40 per cent of the medicines recommended are for the treatment of various cancers. Thirty of the recommended medicines were identified at appraisal as offering patients a new, more effective treatment option or addressing an unmet clinical need. These included new treatments for cancer, a serious sight-threatening disease, life-threatening genetic disorders and chronic lung disease.
Theseillustrate the breadth and scope of the new treatment fund. They also highlight the importance that the Welsh Government has placed on ensuring rapid access to all recommended medicines for all conditions. That is not the approach taken across our border in England. All of the diseases or conditions that I have just mentioned have a very real impact on the quality of life for the individual and their loved ones, and that is why, in Wales, we ensure that the new treatment fund treats all diseases equally and does not prioritise the funding of one disease over another.The full list of recommended medicines is published on AWMSG’s website and a link has been provided for Members.
I expect full compliance to now be sustained over the five-year period of the fund. In practical terms, this means all medicines recommended must be available no later than two months after the AWMSG or NICE recommendation is published.When I reported on initial progress in July, I advised there had been some variation in the availability of a few medicines recommended during the first few months of the fund. Since those early variation issues, I am pleased to report that our NHS has made rapid and much more consistent progress.
Before the introduction of the new treatment fund, health boards were expected to make recommended medicines available no later than three months or 90 days from the NICE or AWMSG published decision. In the first six months of launching the new treatment fund, we have reduced the time taken to make medicines available by 81 per cent. In real terms, that meant the average time taken for health boards across Wales to make medicines available was 17 days in the first six months of the new treatment fund.We have now seen even further improvements during the second six months of the fund. The time taken to make a medicine available has now dropped to an average of 10 days across Wales. That represents an almost 90 per cent reduction in access time across Wales.The two-month time frame is the latest date by which a medicine should become available to prescribe where clinically appropriate. Our goal is to make these medicines available as soon as possible. I am pleased to report that nearly 83 per cent of recommended medicines were made available across Wales within 30 days. 
I welcome, of course, the effort and the achievement of our NHS in making our commitment a reality for patients across Wales. Chief executives and chairs of health boards are clear that the expectation is that they will continue to deliver consistent and sustained full compliance with the requirements of the new treatment fund. The citizens of Wales deserve nothing less.I will, of course, continue to scrutinise health boards and trust performance in delivering their obligations under the treatment fund and hold chief executives and chairs to account for delivery.
Making new medicines available to patients often requires detailed infrastructure and care pathway planning and that can be financially challenging, particularly in the first 12 months.The new treatment fund is designed to support health boards prepare sustainable plans for the introduction of new medicines.Safety, of course, is a paramount consideration when introducing each new medicine. That can mean changes are necessary to the way in which clinical services operate: for example, there may need to be additional or different monitoring of patients to be introduced; patients may need testing, for example, for their clinical suitability.Understanding all of the requirements to introduce a medicine safely and effectively at an early stage is essential and central to fast and sustained access.
Since I launched the fund in January last year, I have talked consistently about the need for the pharmaceutical manufacturing industry and NHS Wales to work more closely together on this agenda. The Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry Cymru Wales continue to be supportive of our approach to the medicines agenda and in particular, the principles of our new treatment fund.I welcome the work they are doing with NHS Wales stakeholders to improve the level and timing of information provided by manufacturers on new medicines. Strengthening financial forecasting and infrastructure planning makes absolute sense to everyone. The industry benefits when its products are adopted quickly, and most importantly, patients benefit from faster access.
The establishment of the new treatment fund is an explicit objective in the Welsh Government’s national strategy, 'Prosperity For All'. In the first full year that the new treatment fund has been in operation, we have substantially shortened the time taken to make medicines available by 85 per cent. We pledged to the people of Wales that our new treatment fund would deliver faster, more consistent access to new life-changing medicines for all conditions. We have kept our promise, and every part of Wales is now seeing the benefit.

Angela Burns AC: Cabinet Secretary, thank you very much indeed for your statement. I'm delighted that the new treatment fund appears to be doing so well. It must be horrendous to be somebody who has some dreadful condition that is in dire need of innovative and radical treatments, and to have the worry of whether or not you can access it through your health board. This seems to be filling a gap in the planning process, and I truly do welcome it. I do have a couple of questions, which I'll ask you in the spirit of, perhaps, you being able to follow up at a later stage and ensure that we are really getting the absolute best out of this fund.
I note that the reports by the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group and the new treatment fund show that in the last 12 months, the number of recommended medicines has dropped from 24 with eight superseded medicines in 2016, to 21 medicines with two superseded in 2017. Cabinet Secretary, would you please outline the reasons for this? Is it that, in order to access medicines faster, the number of medicines in the new treatment fund is being curtailed? Or is it more that, once in the system, that medicine goes off the books and, subsequently, there is an expected hope that candidate treatments for the fund will dwindle to much smaller numbers? Is this the thinking behind making the true new treatment fund a five-year programme?
Cabinet Secretary, you say in your statement that £16 million a year supports faster and more consistent access. It would be interesting, though, to see the patient and access data, to determine how widely the health boards are using the newly available medicines. The most basic information on access data provided last time was that all health boards were taking on the 17—then, it was 17—newly available medicines, but in terms of patient reach there was no detail, and I think that that would really help our understanding to ensure that we do have consistent access for all people throughout Wales, no matter where they happen to live in our country.
Finally, Cabinet Secretary, given the commitment to anticipate the licensing and adoption of innovative treatments, are you confident that health boards are able to horizon scan effectively, thereby improving infrastructure planning so that new innovations are maximised to the fullest extent, and that appropriate support services are also in place? Because I did note in your comments about the ABPI. However, for example, a case in point concerns the new drugs to treat hepatitis C, which have been made available through the new treatment fund—very, very welcome by patients and lobbyists alike. However, given that eliminationof hepatitis C is the avowed aim, and given no hepatitisC strategy is in place, but simply renewed guidance, should the adoption of innovations, such as—I do hope I've pronounced this right—glecaprevir, be part of such a strategy? Because—this ties back to my earlier question about patient access—some people are very hard to reach, but with these new drugs, we can make astonishing strides in improving the quality of people's lives. But it's not just the drug alone in the case of something like the hep C drug; you actually need the support services, the counselling, the outreachand the lifestyle changes to really make that significant difference. The drug is only a part of it. So, I wondered if you could just comment on that as well, thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes. On that last point about hepatitis C elimination, I don't think it's actually about the availability of the drugs. We're really fortunate in Wales to have a national strategy, and within the clinical community, the group of clinicians are very proud of having a national approach. Just because the centre is in Cardiff—. It is a genuinely national approach that people buy into and, to be fair, cliniciansacross the border think we've got it right as well. It's one of the stories you don't often hear about, but actually, people in England are looking at what we've done, how we've done that and why—and actually, it's not been a significant cost increase. But the point about elimination isn't so much about the drugs that are now available. It's really about reaching the harder-to-reach people who don't always engage in services. So, we recognise the reservoir of people still suffering with hepatitis C are people who are less likely to engage in health services per se. It actually is about the outreach part of it, rather than the innovation and the new drugs.
I'm pleased to hear your welcome for the approach we've taken to approved medicines, which is an evidence-led approach. There's no curtailing of new medicines that the new treatment fund is actually delivering or suggesting. Actually, it's really about how and when medicines are developed. So, it's about the industry-led development that goes into it. I'm thinking I'll deal with your next point about horizon scanning. That's some of the things that we've—. We've actually managed to deliver an improvement in practical relationships. I've met with ABPI Cymru tohave a conversation with them about the industry's approach, and I have made clear that, actually, we need to see better engagement with the healthcare system in Wales.So, actually, there have been better conversations between industry about making available earlier, information on those medicines that are likely—or more likely—to get to the point of coming to market and going to an appraisal process, to give health boards an earlier opportunity to plan for their potential implementation.
In fact, that's one of the points the ABPIthemselves make in their press release today, which welcomes the fund, the establishment and, indeed, that particular point about being able to work together in a more grown-up way with the health service. Again, it points to the fact of having an evidence-led approach, and then particularly points to the fact that this fund covers all conditions, as opposed to just one parcel of conditions being covered in funding and access on a faster and more consistent basis.
I'll tell you how wide usage is: the point about having the new treatment fund available is that the treatments are available where they're clinically appropriate, and it's then down to a proper decision made between a healthcare professional and their patient about what's available. So, of the 82 medicines available, my understanding is that approximately 4,000 people in Wales have benefited from that faster access. So, I'm more than happy to return either to the Chamber or to committee in the future about the numbers of medicines and the spread and the reach of the new treatment fund. As we have more data available, I'm more than happy to make that available to Members and the wider public.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Firstly, any evidence that people are finding it easier now to get drugs that they are entitled to is to be welcomed, but a word of background: you may recall that, in 2014, Plaid Cymru announced a policy of seeking a new treatment fund thatwas specifically designed to fund the drugs obtained through individual patient funding requests. I'm very pleased that we are a step forward now, as a result of an agreement between the Government and Plaid Cymru on having exceptionality removed. I'm pleased that that has happened. Labour then, in 2016, announced its own new treatment fund, which wasn't the same. We were of the view—and it is important to point this out—that we shouldn't really need a fund to make LHBs do things that they ought to have been doing legally anyway, as welcome as additional funds are.
So, the first question to you: in the media this morning, it's been reported that, previously, officials suggested that it could take more than 100 days for an approved medicine to be rolled out. Is that an admission that the previous ministerial guidance that treatments should be available within three months following approval was being ignored? And, yes, there is additional funding through the new treatment fund for LHBs to pay for treatments, but it's worth asking this also: do you think that there's a risk, as a result of this policy, that LHBs will expect extra funds to implement other ministerial directions that they ought to legally be adhering to anyway?
Moving on to what you referred to as sustainable plans for the introduction of new medicines, perhaps you could elaborate a little bit on that; namely, how are you ensuring that this planning does take place, and that patients aren't left in the position of a drug not being available in the future?
And finally—it's a point I've raised on a number of occasions in the past—it isn't always just medicines that improve outcomes for patients. Other health technologies and sometimes even simple changes to guidance on how medicines are used can make a difference to patients. Increased awareness, even, of a condition can lead to better outcomes, and there are barriers here to the uptake of best practice across the NHS; for example, a lack of time for continuous professional development. Is this something that you would look at addressing also?

Vaughan Gething AC: I'll deal with your last point first. I recently launched Health Technology Wales, which is a way of looking at non-medicines to look at technology within the health service and for its more rapid adoption. We have a range of different ways in which we've tried to do that in the past—the efficiency through technology programme hashad a good recordof having a range of things at pace and scale across our service. There's more of that to come in the broad approach. But Health Technology Wales is a way to appraise new technology and to give us an understanding of what we should then do, and how we should try and see that delivered across the service. I'll have more to say on Health Technology Wales as we've got a longer period of time to understand its having come into being, and then its impact across the whole health and care system. Of course, that is one of the challenges set to us by the parliamentary review, on how we deliver more innovation at pace and at scale.
There's something here about the new treatment fund, and it's worth reminding all of us that politics is a business where we should have some principles and some values and beliefs, but it's also, ultimately, a practical business. I make no apology at all for recognising where we were, where some recommended medicines were not being introduced as fast or as consistently as they should have been. And we could either have said, 'We'll go after health boards and look to discipline people, and go after them', or we could say, 'How do we make sure that we get this faster and more rapid access?' We've taken a decision to actually do a number of things, and the new treatment fund is obviously part of that. It has also been part of a change in the way that health boards plan for new medicines to come into place. Part of the reason they found it difficult was actually the ability to make a financial choice in the first year of a new treatment being introduced. Actually, after that first year, it's much easier then to continue delivering within a budgetary framework. So, this is recognising the pinch point at the start of a new medicine becoming available, and it's also why—my point that I raised in response to Angela Burns about the improved relationship with the industry itself is really important for us too. All of those things matter in what we've done, and I'm delighted that the pledge that we've made to the people has been kept. This was a manifesto pledge that my party made, and it's a good thing that we're able to say that there are times that politicians really do keep their pledges. And, indeed, we kept our pledge on the agreement we reached with Plaid Cymru, but also the cross-party engagement, on the individual patients funding requests review as well. So, we're making real progress in these areas, and I hope that, in broader health service reform, and the opportunities to make a difference, we can continue some of that grown-up politics approach to doing that.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. As I said when you unveiled it, the new treatment fund is a most welcome addition to the NHS as it can speed up access to vital treatments for all patients, and not simply people suffering with a cancer diagnosis.I welcome the news that some medicines have taken just 17 days to become available under the new treatment fund, and this is wonderful news for patients. However, as with all such schemes, the devil is in the detail. Delivery never quite matches design.Not all local health boards are as efficient in introducing new treatments, and I welcome the steps you have taken to monitor compliance. Cabinet Secretary, can you update us on the how all the local health boards are complying with the requirement to make treatments available within the required timescales?
I welcome the fact that 82 new drugs have now been made available under the scheme, treating everything from arthritis to acromegaly. I must confess I had to look up that condition, but it is great news that people who suffer from this debilitating hormonal disorder can now get treatment in Wales.This highlights the massive improvement the new treatment fund is on the cancer drugs fund in England. This scheme can benefit all patients in Wales, as well as those suffering from cancer. I would be grateful, Cabinet Secretary, if you could outline how many patients have benefitted from the fund in the last 12 months.
Of course, the new treatment fund only supports the introduction of new treatments for the first 12 months. Health boards must accommodate ongoing treatment within their existing budgets. So Cabinet Secretary, can you update us on how health boards are planning to accommodate the additional expenditure of these new treatments during the coming financial year?
I also welcome the news that your Government continues to work with the pharmaceutical industry and that you are working with ABPI Cymru on the new treatment fund. I would be grateful, Cabinet Secretary, if you could outline the work being undertaken to improve horizon scanning within the NHS so that we are better prepared to maximise the benefits of future treatments.
Finally, Cabinet Secretary, this is a treatments fund, and while I greatly welcome 82 new medicines, the fund is not limited to pharmaceutical interventions.So, can we look forward to the fund being used to introduce new therapeutic interventions in the next 12 months?
I welcome your statement, Cabinet Secretary, and the news that patients in Wales can get early access to better treatments, sometimes just days after approval. I look forward to working with you over the next 12 months to ensure that these new treatments are available to every patient who needs them, regardless of where they live in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the series of points and questions. I'll try to be as brief as possible, including those points that I think I've tried to answer in previous questions.
I welcome the recognition of all three other parties in the Chamber that the new treatment fund has delivered a significant improvement in access. It was in the first six months that the average time was 17 days—just to point out, in the second six months, that it's come down to 10 days on average for new treatments to be made available.
As I said to Angela Burns, with the 82 medicines that have been made available with the new treatment fund coming into being, we think that benefits around 4,000 patients, and I also pointed out in response to Rhun ap Iorwerth that this is really about understanding the challenge that we knew existed within the first 12 months of planning for and delivering new medicines, and, thereafter, health boards have actually got a much better track record of managing within their resource budget for drugs.
I also made it clear in my response to Angela Burns—at least I tried to—that horizon scanning has improved and the ABPI's statement itself has recognised that, and that's work to continue building on as well; I don't think that's simply a done deal. I also made it clear to Rhun ap Iorwerth that Health Technology Wales is there to help us in understanding how we take advantage of new non-medicines treatment as well.
But, in terms of your point about compliance, there's a monthly monitoring system. My officials, together with the All Wales Therapeutics & Toxicology Centre, monitor how quickly health boards are putting new treatments on to their form, which will make them available for clinicians to prescribe. That's an area that we'll continue to look at to see if that compliance is being maintained throughout the fund. That's a very clear expectation that I have and the Government has of the new treatment fund—it's not just here to deliver in its first year, but to deliver throughout the term of this Government.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

4. Statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport: Transport for Wales

We move on to a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport on Transport for Wales, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport, Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Llywydd.I welcome this opportunity today to update you on a number of developments with Transport for Wales. Transport for Wales was established in 2015 as a wholly-owned, not-for-profit company to provide support and expertise to the Welsh Government in connection with transport projects in Wales. My aspiration, however, for Transport for Wales is that it should develop and take on a much wider range of transport functions, similar in nature to the operations of Transport for London.
Traditionally, different modes of transport have been considered distinctly, with separate policy, separate funding and separate providers. Whilst this reflects, arguably, how the industry operates, it does not reflect the way that people think about their journeys.When planning the commute to work or a long-distance trip, people think about the cost, the convenience and complexity of the entire door-to-door journey.
To maintain and improve services in a changing world, and with challenging priorities, there is a need to consider innovative delivery arrangements for transport functions, including those that could generate external income streams. 'Taking Wales Forward', 'Prosperity for All' and the economic action plan identify the need to drive a step change in the way we understand, the way that we plan, and the way that we use and invest in transport here in Wales.
Together with the improved devolved settlement offered through the Wales Act 2017, the Welsh Government will put in place a framework for the delivery of transport services that can improve network quality, frequency, reliability and punctuality, and provide more integrated and reduced carbon public transport.Utilising the new powers for rail that are also being devolved, we can now more than ever ensure that people are central to transport policies here in Wales, so that we can deliver a safe, efficient, cost-effective and sustainable transport system for the benefit of the whole of the country.
The economic action plan commits that Transport for Wales will work with the Welsh Government’s new regional teams, the emerging regional transport authorities, and partners to create an integrated public transport network, covering the rail and bus networks.Following the successful model of acquisition of Cardiff Airport, our aim is that the public transport network will be increasingly directly owned or operated by Transport for Wales.

Ken Skates AC: For the first time, we have committed to a five-year programme of transport capital funding through Transport for Wales for both transport maintenance and new projects.This will ensure that these projects will be delivered in the most efficient and effective way, and with a headline target of driving 15 per cent to 20 per cent efficiencies across the five-year investment portfolio for new projects, which means we can make our funding deliver even more. This will also enable the construction supply chain to invest with confidence in the future in terms of both capital and skills. Furthermore, wherever an acceptable business case can be made, the economic action plan commits that the Welsh Government will seek to consolidate current supply arrangements directly into Transport for Wales.
In relation to the new Wales and borders rail service, we have made significant progress with the UK Government since last summer. The Secretary of State for Transport and I have discussed and reached agreement on the way forward on a number of issues and I am pleased that officials are making good progress. Chief among these issues was the financial implication of a complicated devolution context for rail. Discussions between officials, including from Her Majesty's Treasury, continue and the process for transferring the core Valleys lines railway asset is taking shape.
The agreed programme of activity has led to the procurement process for the new service continuing at pace and in line with our plans. Arriva Trains Wales withdrew from the bidding process back in October. As was stated at the time, it is not uncommon for bidders for major projects to withdraw during the tender process and Arriva were clear that their withdrawal was due to their own commercial reasons.The recent Carillion issue has been discussed in this Chamber and I issued a written statement on 17 January.
Transport for Wales had received three bids to operate and develop the next Wales and borders rail service and metro on 21 December last year. They'll be continuing to evaluate these bids over the coming months. By the end of May this year, our process will culminate with the award of the first rail services contract made here in Wales. This follows intensive evaluation and post-tender discussions, led by Transport for Wales, to ensure the contract fully captures the quality service and commitments offered at final tender.
Both the Welsh Government and Transport for Wales are geared up to deliver against these dates, allowing proper time to transition to a new operator and a new way of operating through Transport for Wales in October.However, it must be remembered that until the full transfer of powers has taken place we will still require the timely approval of the UK Government to allow us to both reach preferred bidder stage and to award the contract.
The UK Government plans to lay an Order in the UK Parliament shortly to transfer rail functions to the Welsh Ministers, and, as a fall back, we have also agreed an approach to put further legal agency agreements in place to enable us to award, manage and deliver the next Wales and borders rail service. It remains imperative that the UK Government works at pace with us to deliver against the agreed programme.
Transport for Wales will shortly begin the process of appointing infrastructure delivery partners that will work with the operator and development partner to deliver areas such as station improvements, electrification and signalling for the south Wales metro. Transport for Wales is working closely with Business Wales to make opportunities available to local small and medium-sized entreprises and third sector enterprises. They have already hosted a number of well-attended awareness events relating specifically to the IDP procurement, most recently in Wrexham earlier this month. This is one illustration of how Transport for Wales is entering a new stage of mobilisation to allow it to proactively manage both the new rail service and the different metro schemes.
James Price is in post as chief executive officer, bringing over 15 years of experience of operating and delivering at a senior level. In addition, we have recently appointed independent non-executive directors Martin Dorchester and Nick Gregg to the team, addressing recommendations that have made by the Auditor General for Wales. Martin Dorchesteris an experienced executive, having been group CEO of one of the largest logistics companies in Scotland, and Nick Gregg has been appointed as chair of the Transport for Wales board, initially for a period of 12 months. Nick has the skills required to be a highly successful chair, and brings extensive business experience to the board. Transport for Wales will shortly advertise for twofurther independent non-executive directors to join the board, and this will ensure a diversity of experience and views in decision-making.
I am mindful of the need to make sure that Transport for Wales can deliver effectively for the whole of Wales, and, following my announcement last month of the intention to set up a Transport for Wales business unit in north Wales, I have now instructed Transport for Wales to bring forward proposals for a north Wales office, and I expect this to be delivered at pace too. Meanwhile, in south Wales, good progress is being made towards the construction of the Transport for Wales offices in Pontypridd, led by Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, with whom we continue to work very closely. Looking ahead, once the new operator and development partner has been appointed, we will enter a period of mobilisation for the new service. Transport for Wales will work with the successful bidder to help ensure a seamless transition from the current franchise to the new arrangements, in the interests of passengers and staff. The travelling public should see no disruption to services in October when the new ODP takes over. Then, over the coming months and years, Transport for Wales, working with the operator and development partner, will transform the transport network, putting the passenger at the centre of their plans.

Russell George AC: Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement this afternoon? Of course, Transport for Wales is currently managing the procurement of the new Wales and borders rail franchise. The oversight of the awarding of this contract,I would argue, is the most important transport-related project managed by the WelshGovernment to date.
Going forward, the Cabinet Secretary has outlined an ambitious expansion of the work of Transport for Wales, as he's outlined in 'Prosperity for All', the economic action plan. Now, I would support the expansion of Transport for Wales, over time. There are I think some immediate serious questions that need to be asked regarding the current level of capacity that Transport for Wales hasat its disposal. I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary will agree with this, but without the right capacity and skills, Transport for Wales of course runs a real, serious risk of not being able to effectively manage its current remit, nor any expanded role. So, in that guise, can I ask the Cabinet Secretary to perhaps outline some of the staffing capacity, how many current full-time employees does Transport for Wales currently employ, how many of these individuals currently have full-time contracts, and what the level is of external consultants working and employed by Transport for Wales?
I wonder whether you could also expand on your plans for the workforce, going forward, of Transport for Wales. What timescales have you got linked to additional staff coming in to Transport for Wales, and do you expect this expansion to take place in the coming months ahead as well? You've also mentioned that the chair of Transport for Wales, Nick Gregg, has been appointed for an initial 12-month basis. Can you commit to a pre-appointment hearing, prior to Mr Gregg, or any other candidate, being made a permanent chair of Transport for Wales, perhaps via a committee of this Assembly?
And finally, public confidence, of course, in Transport for Wales is absolutely essential if the organisation is tosucceed going forward. Now, just prior to you standing up to give your statement, I did a Google search of 'Transport for Wales', and noticed direct contact details now on the Government's website to Transport for Wales, which weren't previously there. So, I'd be grateful if you could perhaps detail and provide some confirmation that Transport for Wales does now have a public-facing function, which it didn't have previously.Perhaps you could also confirm whether contact for Assembly Members is via yourself, or whether Assembly Members can contact Transport for Wales staff directly and meet with them directly, rather than, of course, going through yourself.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Russell George for his comments and for his questions? I'll deal with that final question first. I've actually asked today for Transport for Wales officials to offer a briefing session to Assembly Members and a familiarity session as well so that you're able to make direct contact with individuals responsible for various areas of delivery within the organisation. It is now public facing, with the logo, the staffing element of Transport for Wales is building up, and the whole design of Transport for Wales is being delivered with the intention of offering full agility and flexibility in order to scale up or, indeed, scale down to meet project needs. The workforce within Transport for Wales should be demand led, and this will include the recruitment of the skills that are necessary from the marketplace quickly, rapidly, and it will be an incredible resource for Welsh Government to call on. The way that we've configured Transport for Wales provides the opportunity for Welsh Ministers to take a bespoke approach to the transfer of control and risk depending on the specific project, the specific expertise that's required, the timescales, and also the desired outcome.
I very much welcome the Member's support for the idea of expanding out the role and remit of Transport for Wales in the years to come. A business case is actually being developed right now to determine what opportunities Transport for Wales could offer Welsh Ministers in delivering transport infrastructure and services, including the cost benefits to the taxpayer in our country. This might include bus services, it could include rail services, the construction of capital transport and improvements for walking and cycling. It could include capital projects for rail and, of course, for roads as well. It might also, though, include branding and marketing of services, and I know from my time on the backbenches that this is very much something that passengers would value. There is a plethora of transport service providers, all with their distinct logos, websites and information pages. Transport for Wales could offer a single brand and a single point of contact and resource, and I think that would be something that passengers across the length and breadth of Wales would welcome.
In terms of the contract for the franchise, it is huge, as the Member says. It's the biggest procurement project that the Welsh Government has entered into since devolution, and it requires a top team of skilled executives. James Price brings with him immense experience and intelligence, and he will be backed by a board that is skilled and experienced. The Member is right; Nicholas Gregg has been appointed to begin with for one year in order to allow the recruitment process for a new chair to be completed in a timely fashion. Now, whilst appointments to the Transport for Wales board are not regulated public appointments under the code of governance, given the profile of Transport for Wales, the Welsh Government has decided that it would be appropriate for the recruitment process and materials to comply with the public appointments code of governance.

Adam Price AC: I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for his statement. In it, you said that the UK Government plans to lay an order to transfer rail franchising functions to Welsh Ministers shortly. Could you say a little bit about—how shortly is shortly? And the fallback that you refer to if those functions are not transferred—under which circumstances can you envisage that having to be utilised? Is it the circumstance in which you're not able to reach a final agreement on some of the issues that you refer to in your statement where work is ongoing, and, indeed, some of the further issues that were covered in the UK transport Secretary's letter to you in August? Could you shine a bit more lighton how far away are you from reaching agreement?
You said you've reached an agreement on a way forward, which can mean a number of things, but specifically, has an agreement been reached with the UK Government as to who will be responsible for the section 30 operator of last resort? Have you reached an agreement on the quantum of funding that you referred to in your statement, around which there's been some disagreement with the UK Government, or the means by which that figure can be worked out? Have you reached agreement over a protocol of how the Welsh Government will exercise powers over English railway stations served by the franchise?
Finally, you mentioned the fact your aspiration is that Transport for Wales will be responsible for as much as possible of the public transport infrastructure as a public sector body. Could you say what specific representations the Welsh Government have made to amend the Railways Act 1993, which has been amended in the case of Scotland, giving them powers to have a public sector franchise operator, in effect? That hasn't happened in Wales. Have you made specific representations in that regard to the UK Government?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his questions and say at the outset that we've been absolutely consistent in calling for amendments to therailways Act to be made? I believe it was also part of the UK Labour Party's manifesto that would enable us to see public bodiesbid for current franchise opportunitiesand future franchise opportunities as well. That consistent demand by the Government has been rejected, but we continue to press for the Act to be amended.
Constructive discussions have taken place on a whole raft of measures that need to be agreed prior to the functions Order being laid. The UK Government has delayed delivering that Order—tabling that Order—in a timely fashion, but we have been assured that that will take place by May, following the agreements that are due to be completed next month on the funding of the franchise, and also on the transfer of power over the assets. This will include a whole range of agreements that have previously been acting as a stumbling block for progress to be made, but progress, as I say, is being made in a timely fashion now.
In terms of cross-border services, this is something that I'm particularly keen to ensure can be resolved amicably, and I and the Secretary of State have been able to agree on ways that will ensure that passengers on the English side of the border have equal treatment and an equal experience in terms of the journeys that they take on the trains in the next franchise, so that nobody is left disadvantaged under the next franchise. This is something that is particularly relevant given the mass of train journeys that take place in and out of Wales on a cross-border basis.
I would happily bring forward, after the discussions with UK Government have concluded in February, the affordability issues presented as a result of the outcome of the discussions that are taking place. We have engaged the UK Treasury, we've also engaged the Secretary of State for Wales in our discussions, and I'm confident that by the end of February, we will have concluded those discussions in a satisfactory manner.

Mick Antoniw AC: Cabinet Secretary, thank you for the statement—hopefully, the first of many more. Transport for Wales, of course, is very tied up not just with the rail franchise but also with the metro; in fact, the two very much go hand in hand. Can I first of all welcome the basing of Transport for Wales in Pontypridd? The partnership between Welsh Government and Rhondda Cynon Taf council is already a significant catalyst for the regeneration of the area. There's also the proposals that may lead to jobs, training and apprenticeships with regard to the maintenance of rolling stock at places like Taff's Well, and also the development of and Welsh Government funding for apprenticeships in Coleg y Cymoedd related to railway engineering.
But can I say from your report that there are a number of things I'd like you to consider that concern me, to some extent? One is the five-year capital funding that's referred to. If you could, perhaps, provide a bit more detail about that, because this is obviously an area of considerable concern. Secondly, the area of 15 to 20 per cent efficiencies—precisely what that means. We know that when the Tories talk about efficiencies, they're talking about cuts. What exactly do we mean by 15 to 20 per cent efficiencies? Certainly, Chris Grayling has basically told us that not only are we not going to have the electrification of the Valleys lines and the line to Swansea, but we should be jolly well glad that we're not having it because it's actually going to be so much better without electrification. What are the implications of that in terms of the planning and the five-year capital programme because of the issues to do with trains and the types of train stock that we were going to have?
My fourth point is really this: an essential part of all this is the extension of the lines, extension into areas, breaking the stranglehold of traffic, enabling the development of public transport and people to travel across, around, through the Valleys to wherever without going on the roads. Of course, I've raised with you many times the issue of the railway line from Creigiau to Llantrisant and the importance of that, yet we still have very little clarity about where that may fit within the capital programme and in fact whether it will be this phase, whether it will be the next phase or whatever. I think the point is that there is growing interest about the whole importance of this to the development of the economy and south Wales society, as far as my constituency is concerned—Taff Ely. But there is a need for much greater clarity. When are we going to be able to receive that clarity and that sort of detail that people want to see?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Mick Antoniw for various questions and the fact that he's welcomed the siting of the headquarters of Transport for Wales in Pontypridd? The Member is absolutely right that there is huge potential for the headquarters of Transport for Wales to act as a catalyst for regeneration in Pontypridd. Just as interventions did in Merthyr, I see the basing of Transport for Wales in Pontypridd as something of a magnet for other businesses and other investments to be drawn into the community. I'm pleased that we're making very good progress with the local authority, who I must congratulate for their proactive way of working with Welsh Government and with other stakeholders in the development of this particular site. There's no doubt that, in order to develop an economy, you have to have the right infrastructure in place. You also need the right availability of skills and also the right form of support on a regional basis for economic development. Through the economic action plan, through the creation of Transport for Wales, through an unprecedented investment in transport and through an employability plan being delivered by colleagues in Government, I'm sure and confident that we are addressing those key three needs of the economy.
In terms of the five-year budget, I'm more than happy to share with Members the independent report that was commissioned by the UK Government in 2011, which looked into this. It concluded that creating certainty of funding over a period of five years and developing long-term plans for roads through a five-year budget commitment, savings of 15 to 20 per cent could be achieved. So, moving to a five-year budget makes sense, but it is also a significant step. It won't happen overnight, and we need to be clear that savings will only be deliverable on new and not already-contracted schemes.
Now, in terms of the actual quantum that could be saved, taking the 2018-19 draft published budget figures for transport capital over the next three years as an average annual spend, over a 10-year period that could amount to something in the region of £630 million—a huge saving that can then lead to greater investment in the improvement of our transport infrastructure and service delivery. But, as I say, I'm more than happy to be able to provide that report to Members so that they can scrutinise exactly how such significant savings can be achieved.
In terms of electrification, well, the case for electrification to Swansea was made in combination with the case for electrifying the Valleys lines. It happened back when David Cameron was Prime Minister in 2014, and the terms of this agreement included the UK Government funding the full cost of electrification through to Swansea, providing £125 million for the Valleys lines electrification and modernisation scheme and, in return, the Welsh Government took responsibility for the Valleys lines schemes. Now, the agreementgave the Welsh Government the ability to optimise the Valleys lines modernisation scheme in line with the Treasury Green Book. At the time, the mainline electrification investment using a wholly electric train fleet was assessed to be a more cost-effective option than procuring a mixed fleet of electric and bi-mode trains. The wholly electric fleet also, of course, provided some significant environmental benefits.
My concern with the abandoning of electrification of the mainline project through to Swansea is not just that it will leave passengers potentially worse off than could've been expected with electrification, it also presents a reputational risk for Swansea itself. Many of theworld's most advanced economies take for granted the electrification of their rail services, and, yet, this is something that will be denied along south Wales. We are now focused, as a Government, on ensuring that the schemes outlined by the Secretary of State, and to which he is committed, are developed in the wake of the cancellation of electrification, and that they are developed in a timely fashion. They include, of course, improving journey times between Cardiff and Swansea, and also between south Wales, Bristol and London. It includes commitments that are being given to theSwansea area in terms of rail and station improvements, and also improving journey times and connections right across north Wales.
We expect UK Government, having abandoned electrification of thesouth Wales main line, not to abandon any of the commitments that the Government has since signed up to.

David J Rowlands AC: Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his full and comprehensive statement? I take this opportunity to acknowledge that May of this year will certainly be an historic date, when the first ever contract with a 'made in Wales' label will be awarded.
Your vision, Cabinet Secretary, that Transport for Wales should take on a similar role to Transport for London is one that I fully support. The Transport for Londonmodel is held up as being an efficient and cost-effective way of delivering a modern transport system. It is comforting to know that the Cabinet Secretary is willing to look at and implement best practice wherever it occurs. One question arises following the award of the rail contract, and thatis: what sort of delay does the Cabinet Secretary envisage in appointing the operator and development partner, and, following on from that, the infrastructure development partners who will work with the ODPto deliver the substantial infrastructure upgrades and improvements, which will be needed to deliver the transport system envisaged in the Welsh Government plans?
The Cabinet Secretary mentions using local SMEs for thedelivery of as much of the services and infrastructure as possible and I welcome the fact that consultation is already under way with companies who wish to engage in theprocess. But is the Cabinet Secretary confident that the necessary skills and competences are present in local industry?
As Adam Price alluded to earlier, you mentioned that there are still ongoing negotiations with the UK Government on the transfer of full powers to Wales, and I am sure that all the Members in this Chamber will join me in calling on the Department for Transport to facilitate this transfer as a matter of utmost urgency.
Finally, Cabinet Secretary, it's extremely gratifying to see the holistic approach you are taking in delivering the fully integrated transport system that Wales so desperately needs.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank David Rowlands for his comments and questions? David is absolutely right: very soon we'll be seeing a 'made in Wales' stamp on Aston Martins, we'll see a 'made in Wales' stamp on TVRs, we'll see a 'made in Wales' stamp on the rail network, and potentially, in the longer term, on a fully integrated public transport network across our country.
There'll be no delay in appointing the ODP, and work is already taking place involving Business Wales advisers with potential IDPs to ensure that, the length and breadth of Wales, small and medium-sized companies have the ability, the capacity and the skills to be able to secure important and, in many cases, vital projects as part of the next franchise. This is a huge programme in terms of the capital spend that will be invested in the south Wales metro and that will also be invested across theWales and borders network, and of course in the development of thenorth-east Wales metro.
I am determined to make surethat Business Wales advisers don't just give support in terms of how to win contracts, but also give support in ensuring that small businesses have the right people with the right skills employed to be able to deliver projects that will be transformative for the public transport network. It's absolutely essential that Welsh Government works with businesses, with stakeholders, with the ODP, and I also believe with local government at a regional level, to develop a transport network and to develop an integrated transport system that benefits not just individuals, but also businesses across the length and breadth of Wales.

Thank you. We have had speakers from all of the parties now, so, the next set of speakers, if I can ask you for a very brief introduction to your one question. Thank you. John Griffiths.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, you will be aware that there are many issues in terms of rail services around Newport. Commuters are often on grossly overcrowded trains travelling to Bristol, for example. There are issues of people being asked to stand in toilets to allow more people to get on, peoplefainting, people being left on the platforms, issues of unreliability and, indeed, affordability—prices have gone up substantially by, I think, around a third over 10 years, without a commensurate improvement in quality of service. Understandably, people are often very annoyed, if not demoralised. Groups like the Severn tunnel action group and those campaigning for a Magor station have conducted surveys that clearly demonstrate that level of passenger dissatisfaction and the lack of quality in the services they experience.
So, in that context, Cabinet Secretary, I know many people are very much hoping that the new Wales and borders franchise will include those cross-border services, for example to Bristol. They would very much like to hear from you that you will continue to press UK Government for the inclusion of those services in the franchise, and also to hear from you that if that inclusion does take place, these issues of overcrowding, of unreliability, of affordability will be addressed and effectively addressed in that new Wales and borders franchise.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank John Griffiths for his comments and his questions? It was remiss of me not to say that we'll also soon have the 'made in Wales' stamp on CAF trains, just as we have a 'made in Wales' stamp on Airbus wings, on Raytheon products. We will have 'made in Wales' stamped all over trains, planes and automobiles for the global market very soon. I think that's important in developing an identity of Wales as a place where high-value manufacturing is taken very seriously.
It's unacceptable to have crowding to such a degree as we're witnessing at the moment on the train network. It is absolutely appalling, at peak hours in particular, on many services—on those already highlighted by John Griffiths, but on servicesthat I'm sure many Members in this Chamber use on a daily or weekly basis. During the next franchise, it's our determined position to ensure that quality improves, that punctuality improves, that the frequency of train journeys improves, that capacity, most certainly, improves noticeably, and that technological solutions also improve. Indeed, we are motivating and encouraging the bidders to utilise new and emerging technologies to ensure that passenger comfort is optimised.
In terms of those cross-border services that John Griffiths has highlighted, I noted recently that the Secretary of State believed that Welsh Government could take more control over those particular cross-border services. It's something that we have been asking for, and it'ssomething that we would very much welcome in the short term, medium term and in the longer term, as we seek to improve, noticeably, rail services across Wales and on a cross-border basis.

Mark Isherwood AC: In your statement,you say Transport for Wales will work with Welsh Government's new regional teams, emerging transport regional authorities and partners to create an integrated transport network. In this context, you'll be aware of the growth deal bid from north Wales that was submitted in a few days before Christmas, with negotiations due to commence with both Welsh Government and UK Government early this year.What, therefore, is the expected timescale for those negotiations?
Given your instruction, in your statement, to Transport for Wales to bring forward proposals for a north Wales office, how do you respond to the growth bid's invitation to the Welsh Government to support the formation of a regional transport body to deliver strategic transport planning and projects in north Wales, on a region-wide basis, with powers delegated to the body from local authorities and Welsh Government to allow it to operate in an executive capacity, with a regional transport fund of £150 million over 10 years, including the Welsh Government's existing £50 million for the north Wales metro commitment?
Would you also tell me why there's been no Welsh Government conversation with Bus Users Cymru regarding rail-bus integration? What is Transport for Wales doing regarding bus passenger representation, as well as engagement with sector providers?
Clearly, you will be aware of D Jones & Son, Acrefair bus operators, ceasing to operate just before Christmas, following the demise of GHA Coaches in 2016. Concerns were raised by Llyr earlier regarding the impact on Wrexham business or industrial park, and employees not being able to get home between 5 and 6 in the evening. How, therefore, do you respond to a concern raised with me, with you in writing, by the lead member for transport at Wrexham, but also by representatives of the Confederation of Passenger Transport Cymru, Bus Users Cymru, Traveline Cymru and the Welsh Local Government Association in the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee last week, that there would be no tangible actions or outcomes coming out from the bus summit in January 2016 and the workshops that followed?
And, finally, it's a question actually from a Flintshire resident and constituent who travels cross-border, and is in the context of cross-border provision: what action do you propose where the integrated conurbation of Deeside and Merseyside is only linked by an 'unlit, single lane trunk road, with the A550 road blocked or choked every day' as people from north Wales travel between Deeside, Flintshire, north Wales and the Wirral and Merseyside? Thank you.

There were a number of questions there, even though I only asked for one now, but never mind.

Ken Skates AC: Yes, a significant number of questions, but I'll try to address all of them. First of all, with regard to the growth bid, of course we'll be scrutinising each of the proposals during the negotiation stage. I'd very much welcome, as I said in my statement, the creation of regional transport authorities to ensure that we've got integrated transport planned on a regional and—in the case of north Wales—on a cross-border basis. We've already established the north Wales and north-east Wales metro steering group and it's developing a programme of work to bring together a package of interventions that reflects not just local, but also regional, improvements. The programme will also include cross-border improvements and the focus will be on creating integrated transport hubs at key employment sites across north Wales and, of course, across the Mersey-Dee area. It's about better connectivity, not just within, but also to, from and between the hubs.
In terms of Bus Users Cymru, I'm surprised that the Member states that, given that we have regular dialogue with them and given that we've currently got a consultation taking place on bus transport, and we've had two consultations taking place in the past 12 months. A further consultation will be taking place this spring concerning the detailed proposals for future legislation and I very much look forward to Bus Users Cymru providing their input into that consultation.
In terms of the fragility of local bus services, the Member must surely recognise that this is in no small part due to deregulation in 1986, and, of course, it's absolutely vital that local authorities take their role and responsibility seriously. Unfortunately, it appears that Wrexham council, which I believe is run by independents and Conservatives, has reduced their support for non-commercial bus services, I believe, to zero, and that's in stark contrast to the £25 million that we, a Welsh Labour Government, have maintained over many years.
In addition, I made available £300,000 for the region, for north-east Wales, to be able to deal with the collapse of GHA and the fragility of the local bus network. It's for those three local authorities—Denbighshire, Wrexham and Flintshire—to work together to ensure that bus services are given support by local authorities, collectively and individually, to ensure that communities are served by them. And in terms of the summit that took place last year, one of the main benefits of that summit was—it formed part of the five-point plan—the introduction of bus companies, particularly those small and vulnerable bus companies, to Business Wales advisers and support services. As a consequence of that, a number of companies have been given practical advice on how to weather the storm of austerity and fragility within the deregulated system. But, longer term, that deregulated system has to be addressed, and it will be, through legislation, and we will be consulting on that in the coming months.
I was surprised to hear, also, criticism of a lack of investment in cross-border roads in north-east Wales, given our commitment of over £200 million to the Flintshire corridor, which offers one of the most important arteries. A significant upgrade will relieve congestion between Flintshire and the Wirral.

Jenny Rathbone AC: What is it about the UK Government that makes it so difficult for them to come up with timely decisions in relation to Wales? I don't expect you to answer that, but, you know, the Welsh Government and Transport for Wales are geared up for this, but the UK Government has yet to transfer the powers to enable us to award the preferred bidder status, agree the contract, and still have a new service seamlessly transferred by October.
I am interested in the fact that you talk about station improvements, electrification and signalling for the south Wales metro, but I'm more keen to hear about trams, light rail and integrated ticketing, which seem to me the key issues, rather than getting ourselves in too much of a knot around the electrification of the Valleys lines. We need to have much more effective solutions to produce the outcomes that we need. I wondered if you could say about that.

Ken Skates AC: Yes, I've taken a great degree of interest in Mersey Travel's schemes and the way that they integrate ticketing and ensure that there is a very transparent and sure way of paying for services. Transport for Wales is going to be tasked with ensuring that there is integrated ticketing and affordable, accessible transport for all, and a fares regime that is also fair.
I would agree with the rhetorical question and the basis of the rhetorical question. The UK Government does indeed appear to be struggling to support many parts of Wales in terms of rail infrastructure. We've only enjoyed something in the region of 1 to 1.5 per cent of investment in the Wales and borders route in the previous Assembly term, and that's in spite of it amounting to more than 5 per cent of the overall UK network. We've also seen the UK Government fail, to date, to support the Swansea lagoon, electrification, and I must say that I'm only glad that they're not in charge of SwanseaCity AssociationFootball Club, because if they were, I don't think there would be any hope of them staying up in the premiership.

Thank you. Lee Waters.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and in deference to you, I will be brief and ask just one question. I'm pleased to see in the statement that you say Transport for Wales will be looking at the whole journey door to door. I presume that therefore includes active travel as those key links at either end of the journey. Can you confirm that is the intention, because it's not mentioned in the statement? And if that is the case, will you make sure that the skills and capacity within Transport for Wales exists to be able to take action on active travel, because that is palpably missing at both central and local government level at the moment? Thank you.

Ken Skates AC: Yes. Can I thank Lee Waters for his question and say, yes, potentially, active travel would fall within Transport for Wales, but it would also require additional skills in order to make sure that active travel solutions are fit for purpose and also take account of the door-to-door nature of many journeys that people take?

Vikki Howells AC: Cabinet Secretary, I welcome your comments about people being central to the delivery of transport policy. In my constituency, there is a debate as to whether bus or train links would best serve one local community under any future metro scheme. What mechanisms will be built in for community consultation, so that services can be shaped to meet the needs and demands of local people?

Ken Skates AC: Well, the bidders have all been invited to offer the best solutions, not just in terms of value for money, but the best solutions in terms of being able to connect communities and connect employment hubs.Those solutions could combine different forms of travel, but it's essential that, as the design of the metro commences, communities and stakeholders do form part of a partnership approach, so that the solutions that are eventually determined are those that are supported by the people that are eventually going to be using the services.

Thank you very much. Thanks, Cabinet Secretary.

5. Statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs: The Food and Drink Industry

We move on to item 5, which is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs on the food and drink industry, and I call on Lesley Griffiths, as the Cabinet Secretary, to introduce the statement.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.Our Welsh food and drink industry continues to go from strength to strength.Since I last addressed Plenary, in November 2016, the industry’s sales turnover has increased strongly from £6.1 billion to £6.9 billion. We stand on the threshold of the £7 billion target of 'Towards Sustainable Growth', the food and drink action plan set in 2014, to be reached by 2020.This is tremendous progress. It reflects the hard work and effort by businesses across Wales, large and small. It is a result for forward thinking strategy and for the determined action to see it through. It is an outcome founded on partnership, working directly with businesses, our expert food technology centres, and the food and drink Wales industry board.
Over the last 12 months there have been many successes. BlasCymru/TasteWales was Wales’s first international trade event. It put Wales on the map in our aspiration to be a food nation. Business generated is projected to reach over £22 million. BlasCymru/TasteWales will become our signature showcase event in bringing Wales to the world, and also the world to Wales, with the next event planned for March 2019.
Last November, we held a celebration of our Great Taste awards winners and our protected food name products. Yet again, the industry has done extremely well, with 165 Great Taste winners at the 2017 UK awards. Our tally of protected food name products has risen to 14, with six having gained this European status in 2017. Protected food names are an internationally-recognised badge of authenticity and originality. Collectively, these winners are building our reputation and brand, placing us on a global stage.
Our successes are built on focused direction and support, which is creating confidence and providing the means for businesses to do more. Our business support packages have invested in innovation, in marketing and in our people. Investment approved through the food business investment scheme now stands at nearly £30 million approved for 34 expanding businesses. Project Helix is encouraging a culture of innovation and entrepreneurship and, supported by an investment of £21 million, practical support is delivering new products and processes to meet market demand and maximise value.
Our business cluster programme revolves around six key clusters and special interest groups, involving 410 businesses actively engaged in important business areas of the food and drink action plan. As common interest groups, clusters are a powerful engine for driving growth, opening new opportunities, adding value and creating stronger supply chains.
However, this is not just about the numbers. Food is about people—their health and well-being. At the grass roots, the Cabinet Secretary for Education has provided £0.5 million to support a school holiday anti-hunger initiative for primary schools. At the strategic level, work is starting on an obesity strategy for Wales.
Of course, Brexit remains a huge challenge. We must embrace change in mindset, processes and structures. Brexit is causing a worrying level of uncertainty about what the next few years will bring. The Welsh Government has voiced strong concerns about the UK Government’s stance. The wrong decisions and a poor Brexit deal will have long-lasting and far-reaching consequences.
I am facing the challenge and responding by increasing the pace and intensity of the Welsh Government’s effort and support. I've allocated an additional £2.8 million investment for a fit-for-market sector readiness programme and essential preparation to deliver new initiatives and to expand the support initiatives already under way. This new investment will support and help to futureproof the food and drink action plan and support the skills needed by our people.
In the autumn I attended Invest in Skills, Invest in Growth, the first Welsh food and drinks skills conference. I listened to what the industry was telling me, and it’s loud and clear: it has significant skills gaps, which Brexit could make worseby the uncertainty faced by our valued EU migrant workers. My message is clear to them: we value your contribution and we want you to stay in Wales. I announced the need to develop an employability and skills plan for the industry, and the board will be inviting discussion on draft measures at a follow-up conference next month.
A strong international presence is central to raising our profile and realises our vision to position Wales as a food nation capable of supplying the UK and international markets. At Anuga, Cologne’s global food and drink trade fair, I announced an additional £1.5 million for our red meat agency partner Hybu Cig Cymru to deliver an enhanced export development programme, specifically for market access in new markets and defending the current position. Although exports grew to £436 million in 2016, our most important market is the UK, where we trade the greatest level of production. Brexit requires a significant realignment of food industry supply chains. We will build on import opportunities and seek to substitute Welsh food and drink products. We are working with retailers and food service businesses, the Wales Retail Consortium and the Food and Drink Wales industry board to make this happen.
The interest in our wonderful Welsh food and drink has never been greater. The quality, service and originality of the Welsh offer are recognised across the world. We know consumer interest in Welsh products is increasing across the UK, with people perceiving the inherent value of Welshness. We will build on these values to support brand Wales.
We stand at the halfway point of 'Towards Sustainable Growth', our increasingly successful action plan to 2020, and close to reaching our headline target. Wales's food and drink industry is a huge asset. It contributes increasingly to our economy and is now rightly recognised as a foundation sector with priority status in 'Prosperity for All', in the Welsh Government's new action plan for the economy. It generates wealth and strengthens the economy regionally and nationally. It creates jobs and careers where skills matter. It adds value to our agricultural produce and it brings prestige to our nation, with a growing profile and reputation throughout the world.
Through continued focus on what works, and through an internal and external readiness for Brexit, we will be fully fit for market, with industry structures that are optimal for performance. I have every confidence we will continue to succeed, and, with leadership and good skills support, make the best of Brexit and deliver for Wales.

Thank you. Paul Davies.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement this afternoon? This statement is particularly timely as this morning I hosted the annual Farmers Union of Wales farmhouse breakfast in the Pierhead, which gave Members a great opportunity to sample a hearty Welsh breakfast and to discuss some of the opportunities and challenges facing the Welsh food and drink sector.
Now, we on this side of the Chamber share the Cabinet Secretary's ambition to grow the sector by 30 per cent by 2020, and it's great to see in today's statement that the sector has continued to grow. Of course, that also means that, as Britain prepares to leave the European Union, it's absolutely crucial that Governments at all levels are working together to prioritise our food and drink industry and ensure that our domestic market remains strong.
I appreciate that the Welsh Government has been reviewing its export support for Welsh food and drink businesses, but perhaps the Cabinet Secretary could provide us with some more detail on the Welsh Government's work in this area, both in the short and longer term, so that we can better understand the Government's strategic objectives. It's crucial that Welsh producers reach new markets, and today's statement references BlasCymru, which has been a success. However, I'd be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could provide a bit more detail on how BlasCymru has identified technological advances in the food and drink industry and bridged together Welsh businesses with academic institutions and research providers.
Now, I'm sure that all Members would agree that it's important that more can and should be done to promote Welsh produce, not just abroad, but here at home too, given that our most important market is the UK. Indeed, research conducted by Food and Drink Wales showed that the value of Welshness is growing and that more and more people across Wales would prefer to buy more Welsh products, but are hampered by availability. In light of the recent 'Value of Welshness' report, could the Cabinet Secretary confirm what new approaches are being considered to ensure Welsh produce is made more available to domestic consumers? Could she also tell us what discussions the Welsh Government has had with supermarkets and retailers about ways in which they could help promote Welsh produce more locally?
Now, one of the food and drink action plan's key actions is to address the skills gapsacross the food supply chain through devising and revising the current training and skills programme. Now, today's statement refers to an employability and skills plan for the industry, and I note the Cabinet Secretary will be inviting discussion on draft measures at a follow-up conference next month. As the Cabinet Secretary is already aware, I've long supported the need to demonstrate measurable outcomes in this area, so perhaps she will now commit to publishing job creation statistics alongside the publication of this particular plan.
Now, it's essential that all parts of Wales are receiving funding for food and drink projects, and that funding isn't consolidated to certain parts of Wales—projects and producers from all corners of Wales must feel supported by the Welsh Government. So, therefore, will the Cabinet Secretary commit to publishing the amount of Welsh Government funding that has been allocated to the food and drink industry by local authority, so that Members can be confident that all funding streams are transparent and that all parts of Wales are receiving their fair share of any Welsh Government funding?
I'm pleased that today's statement recognises that a strong food strategy is integral to the Welsh Government's public health objectives, and that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has provided additional funds in this particular area. It's crucial that the Welsh Government develops a healthy lifestyle eating culture in schools, including projects around the growing, preparing and cooking of food, as well as learning about balancing diet and exercise. Therefore, I'd be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could tell us a bit more about the actions that have been taken to meet this particular objective, so that we can better understand the Welsh Government's progress in this area.
And, finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, I'm delighted that the food and drink plan proposed that a food festival association should be developed, and I hope that in responding to this the Cabinet Secretary will outline more about the specific action and update us on the work of the food festival association.
Therefore, in closing, can I once again thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement? I look forward to hearing more about the Welsh Government's plans to protect the sustainability of the Welsh food and drink sector in both the short term and longer term. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Paul Davies, for the series of questions, and I was very pleased to speak at the FUW breakfast this morning that Paul referred to, that he sponsored. Unfortunately, I didn't get any breakfast but that's quite often an issue when you go to these events and you're whizzed past all the food. But it was very good to see so many people there enjoying Welsh produce absolutely at its finest, and linking our agricultural sector with our food and drink, which I think unfortunately sometimes gets lost in translation.
You're quite right that that very ambitious target—. I remember sitting in Cabinet when my predecessor's predecessor, Alun Davies, announced this target of increasing our food and drink industry to £7 billion by 2020 and thinking we would never achievethat, so to achieve—. I'm sure when the 2017 data comes out we will have certainly achieved that, but to get to £6.9 billion by 2016 is a tremendous accomplishment, and, as I say, it's down to the hard work of so many of our businesses.
You referred to export support and, certainly, the challenges of Brexit mean that we need to look at new markets, and that's why we've put significant funding into export programmes, for instance, in encouraging our companies to look at it. I just wanted to give some recent figures around export, because it does show that Welsh food and drink exports have increased by almost 20 per cent, from £264 million in 2015 to £337 million in—. Sorry, 2015, and that's up to 2016-17. Seventy two per cent of exports go to the European Union, so you can see how much uncertainty is being created and why we need to look for new markets.That actually compares to a 9.5 per cent increase for the UK as a whole, so you can see how successful we are being in Wales. And I mentioned that I'd given further funding of £1.5 million to Hybu Cig Cymru, which I announced back in October at Anuga in Cologne to develop an enhanced export development programme. Certainly, my first discussion with HCC is that I've told them I want them to be as ambitious as possible to meet that, but it would be great if they could exceed it, and I hope that they will.
You referred to Blas Cymru. That was a great success and, again, my predecessor, Carl Sargeant, that was his idea to bring the world to Wales, and I think it exceeded all our expectations. I know that, up to now, we've had an increase of £7 million extra business from it but, again, it's hoped that we could get up to possibly £22 million.I would have liked to have done one every year, but it is a huge event so we're going to do it now in March of next year. Again, it will be a much bigger event.
You talked about the value of Welshness and I think that's a really pertinent point. Certainly, I have had discussions with many supermarkets, and, if you go to somewhere like Morrisons for instance, you see the Blas Cymru from your own constituency, and you see people searching out that label. I think we need to look to all our supermarkets to make sure they increase it. And, as I say, I have had discussions with—I can't think of any supermarket that I haven't had a discussion with and they certainly feel more willing and able to take our produce.
Skills is obviously a very important issue and I mentioned the conference that the Food and Drink Wales industry board held here in Cardiff in October. The next one is in Llandudno, I think, next month—certainly up in north Wales. They told me about the gaps. It is a concern that, if we aren't able to have EU migrants working in the way that they're currently doing, those gaps won't be filled. So, it is absolutely right that we need to ensure that our businesses are fully equipped with the right skills and training support.
You asked me if I would publish job creation statistics. Certainly, if I have those, I'd be very happy to do that. It might be on a whole-Wales basis but I'll certainly look to doing that.FootnoteLink
Funding is very important and you're right, we can't just give different pockets of Wales the funding. But, certainly—you know, I travel all over Wales. I was up in north Wales—I visited two food companies last Thursday. One of them wasSiwgr a Sbeis—many Members will be aware of their cakes, and they've had some funding from us. Then, yesterday, I was down in west Wales visiting companies. So, certainly I think it's there.Again, I'm not sure if we hold that information on a local authority basis but, certainly, if we hold it on a region basis, I'll be very happy to do that.
Public health is obviously very important and you'll be aware that the Welsh Government is producing an obesity strategy. I think it's now going to be published next year, in 2019, and, clearly, if we can help our children eat healthily today, we obviously create healthy adults. So, I think it's very important that we link in with public health.
Food festivals, again, I think are a huge success and I've been very fortunate to attend many right across Wales. The last one I think I attended was in Llangollen in Ken Skates's constituency, but I know we have ensured again that funding is spread out right across Wales.

Information further to Plenary

Simon Thomas AC: May I also thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement and note, with thanks to everyone, that the industry has been successful during the past year and that progress is still being made towards the target in the food and drink plan?
I would like to start by asking the Cabinet Secretary where is she now, in considering exiting the European Union, on branding Welsh foods, specifically from the point of view of the source of food, animal welfare and environmental standards. The statement mentioned PGI specifically and we know how successful that has been in developing the export of lamb since that status was granted. I’m sure she would agree that it’s important to retain that status, but it’s also important that Welsh food is recognised as Welsh food as we exit the European Union, rather than it being draped in the union jack or marked as from somewhere ambiguous called Britain. Retaining that Welsh brand is very important, so what specifically is she doing in that regard? Specifically, although she says she’s having negotiations with the supermarkets, is she discussing this very point with the supermarkets, that, post Brexit, Welsh branding will not just remain but that supermarkets should embrace that and promote it?
Although there are successes such as the events referred to by the Cabinet Secretary, I am one of those people who regrets the fact that we have lost the specific True Taste awards or something similar—awards that recognised Welsh food and celebrated it and was a means of spreading best practice. I’d also ask whether the Cabinet Secretary has any intention of reconsidering that aspect of marketing and branding, again in the face of the challenges currently facing us.
The Cabinet Secretary specifically mentioned Project Helix in the statement. I understand that this is a scheme for innovation, and I would appreciate it if you could give us an example of the kind of event or the kind of innovation that's being promoted and supported by that particular programme. It's over £20 million, and I'd like to see how that's being spent.
If I could just bring a few issues together, there's additional funding for Hybu Cig Cymru, and there's the fact that the final budget will include a fund to respond to Brexit. I just wanted to understand whether the Cabinet Secretary has sufficient resources now to deal with Brexit and to deal with the challenges emerging from that and to help businesses, specifically those businesses that are exporting, to deal with interest rates, which are changeable, and possibilities in terms of problems in leaving the customs union. Is she confident that sufficient resources have been allocated in that regard? What specifically is she asking Hybu Cig Cymru to do now? Hybu Cig Cymru does have very important functions in promoting the whole food sector, including lamb from the Welsh uplands and the smaller lambs particularly.
I just want to finish with a question on school milk, because the Cabinet Secretary will have seen that some are questioning the continuation of the school milk scheme. It's a good way of getting schoolchildren familiar with the best of Welsh produce, and it's healthy and nutritious too. It's been supported by European funding and Welsh Government funding, but as we exit the European Union we need to ask where that support will come from in the future and whether the Government will continue to support the school milk programme. I hope that she will be able to give us an assurance that that will remain for the future, whatever decisions are taken as we leave the European Union.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I thankSimon Thomas for his list of questions and for welcoming the significant progress that we've made. I think you raise a very important point about team Wales, brand Wales and ensuring that people understand where the food is coming from. Certainly, I'm having discussions around labelling. You'll be aware that, even in a product, you could have some imported ingredients also, so I think it is very important that labelling is very clear and that people understand what they did. I saw a really disturbing example at one of the summer fairs last year when a lady thought she'd bought bacon that was Welsh, but it actually wasn't. You know, it had the dragon, but underneath it said that part of it wasn't all from Wales, and she was incredibly annoyed about it and came up to me and told me of her annoyance. So, I think it is vital that we get it right. And maybe that's one of the opportunities that we can have coming out of Europe.
You spoke about protected food names, and I mentioned in my opening remarks that the PFN family is growing rapidly. I've been very pleased that even the ones that were in the pipeline—the EU are treating them just as they would have done if we weren't exiting the EU, so I think it's very good. They're great selling points. Certainly producers that I've spoken to think it's an advantage and a very unique selling point. Again, I think it's very important that, after we exit the EU, we aim to work with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to ensure the EU honour any schemes that are in the pipeline to their completion. Also, companies and food producers who have PFN at the moment, I think they want to retain it. Certainly, there are examples of countries outside the EU having registered products, so I don't see that that's necessarily a barrier. So, I think there is a strong precedent to negotiate our continued part in the scheme, and those are discussions that are ongoing.
You too mentioned about supermarkets ensuring that they continue to have Welsh produce. One big success, I think, has been Asda selling Welsh lamb. Again, they piloted it in a few supermarkets, but they are looking to increase that number, and I think that will be, obviously, very beneficial for Welsh lamb.
BlasCymru certainly was very successful. I know a few people have said to me that they weren't happy that the True Taste awards went. I have to say that most of the companies that I talk to really like the UK Great Taste awards,but it's something that I'm very happy to consider going forward—having our own awards.
You asked about Project Helix. That's delivered by the three food centres of excellence, as you know, the ZERO2FIVE food industry centre, which is based at Cardiff Met, the Food Centre Wales at Horeb in Ceredigion, and the Food Technology Centre, which is based at Coleg Menai up in Llangefni. What Helix's mission is is to stimulate that innovation and support new product development that benefits, obviously, all our food and drink companies, working together to meet their needs. So, that work is ongoing. It was launched at BlasCymru back in March and it had RDP funding of £21.2 million. What it's doing is it's working with companies that engage with over 400 food and drink businesses, and that figure is growing daily. I'd be very happy to write to the Member if he wants a specific example of what it's doing, but it is expected, over the lifetime of the scheme, to generate about £100 million for the Welsh economy and also safeguard thousands of jobs.
You mentioned the funding that was announced by the First Minister—the EU transition fund to help out our businesses. At our Brexit round-table meeting yesterday in Aberystwyth, it was certainly welcomed. Many of our companies are very concerned about making sure that they're sustainable and, certainly, the £50 million—and I'm looking at the Cabinet Secretary for Finance—that's the initial funding, and we are hoping there'll be more. You ask if I've got enough funding. Obviously you've never got enough funding, have you? But I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary for Finance has heard my plea. But, certainly, I think that that funding will really help companies prepare for Brexit, and they are telling us that that's what they want. So, we'll wait to see, obviously, at the end, if we require some more.
You asked about Hybu Cig Cymru, and I mentioned the extra funding that I announced for them. They're going to develop and deliver an enhanced export development programme for Welsh red meat. I think it's very important that we seek to increase sales. Export sales will obviously be a key component of that, and I mentioned that I told them to be as ambitious as possible in meeting that, and if they could exceed it, that would be, obviously, beneficial for everybody.
I can't see a time when we won't be bringing forward school milk, and, certainly, the farmers are telling me that it's very important that we continue to do that. I haven't had specific discussions, but I will make sure that I put that on the agenda.

Mike Hedges AC: I welcome the statement by the Cabinet Secretary. I think we should all welcome that, since November 2016, the industry sales turnover has increased from £6.1 billion to £6.9 billion, and I think we should all be really pleased that we stand on the threshold of the £7 billion target towards sustainable growth in the food and drink action plan, set in 2014, to be reached by 2020—and it looks as if were going to reach it early.
As the Cabinet Secretary is aware, the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee are carrying out an inquiry into food and drink in Wales at the moment. As part of it, I was talking to Welsh producers both at the Royal Welsh Show and the National Eisteddfod. I was intrigued by how easy companies told me it was to get the supermarkets to promote their Welsh products in all of Wales. Now, the difficulty, they said, was getting their products across the border. This included companies that were based in Flintshire who found it easier to get a supermarket to put it in their Welsh section in Swansea than they did to put it in Chester and have a Welsh section in Chester. Has this issue been raised with the Cabinet Secretary, and if not, can, perhaps, the Cabinet Secretary talk to some people who process food in Wales to see if that is a general problem?
As people know, I take a great interest in parts of Europe such as Aarhus. Aarhus has three major food processors: Arla, Lurpak and Castello. What would I find if I went to a supermarket in Denmark—what would be the Welsh equivalent? I think, if the answer's nothing, which I think it probably is, that's really our challenge, isn't it? One of the growth areas in food and drink has been microbreweries, such as West by Three and Boss in Swansea East, as well as small and growing independent breweries such as Tomos Watkin, also in Swansea East, and Tiny Rebel in Newport. What support is the Welsh Government giving to this industry, which really has been a growth industry in the Welsh economy over the last 10 years?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I thank Mike Hedges for those questions. I'm absolutely convinced that we will certainly hit that target of £7 billion when we have the 2017 data, and then we'll certainly have to look at where we set the next target. You specifically mentioned Chester, and, obviously, my constituency borders onto Cheshire—[Interruption.] I'm guessing that's why you mentioned it. I can't think of anybody who's actually raised that with me. I was quite disappointed to find, when I came into portfolio, that we didn't actually have the statistics for produce that we export to England—for want of a better word—and I think it's something that we need to look at, becausewe certainly need to be ensuring that we do see an increase in our Welsh food and drink produce going into England. I'm very well aware of the committee that Mike Hedges chairs, and of the review, and I very much look forward to receiving the report.FootnoteLink
The food and drink agenda is very broad, but it's absolutely of fundamental importance to Wales, and that's why I was so pleased to see it as a priority and become a foundation sector for our economy. Certainly, I've had many discussions with my colleague Ken Skates around foodtourism, for instance. There are gaps there that we can address going forward. On microbreweries, certainly, I've been fortunate to visit a few myself. I've visited Tiny Rebel in Newport, and they told me—. It's a fantastic company started by a young couple, very innovative, and they certainly told me that they were not just grateful for the support they have—not just finance support, but the business advice from officials—and again, it's great to see them going from strength to strength.

Information further to Plenary

Neil Hamilton AC: I, too, welcome the statement by the Cabinet Secretary. It's a good news story, and I welcome the initiatives that the Government has taken to increase the scope of Welsh branding and also the scope for exports of our products. The Cabinet Secretary once describedherself to me as a glass-half-full rather than a glass-half-empty person, and I'm glad to see, therefore, the note of optimism that suffuses the statement—after the ritual reference to Brexit uncertainty and so on—but nevertheless, looking forward to build on import opportunities that seek to substitute Welsh food and drink products, because we will have an opportunity to take advantage of the new freedoms that we'll have post Brexit.
In almost all sectors of agricultural produce in the UK—I haven't been able to find Welsh statistics and the Cabinet Secretary referred a moment ago to the need to refine the statistical base of our knowledge on Welsh production and sales—but in the UK as a whole, we are substantially in deficit on almost every area of agricultural production, and in some cases substantially so. Imports of dairy productsand eggs, for example—. Sorry, I'd better put my glasses on. There's £2.8 million in imports compared with £1.2 million of exports. And in meat, again, it's £6.1 million—. No, sorry—. I haven't got my glasses on, so I can't read it all. But anyway, the upshot is that we export a lot less than we import. Therefore, this does give us the opportunity to take advantage of extra sales.
We're in the fortunate position where the world population is still rapidly growing, and those parts of the world—the countries that are most populous, like China and India—they're also becoming substantially more wealthy every year, so that means their tastes will go upmarket. So, the future for Welsh produce and exports must be in the high-end and quality sector, which is good news for us, because we produce top-quality food, and it's therefore just a question of marketing it in the global economy. This applies even to markets for lamb, where we know that we will have a significant problem if there isn't a sensible trade deal with the EU. And even though the bulk of our imports are from New Zealand, not from other parts of the world, we still have a trade deficit even in lamb. So, there are plenty of opportunities for us to make the case for greater exports. And when you consider that the value of exports, as stated here, was £436 million in 2016, in an economy worth about £60 billion, that's still a very small amount of money.
So, there must be huge scope,I think, for Welsh farmers and food producers and processors to take advantage of a growing world economy and a world economy thatis becoming more and more prosperous. So, I think all parties in this house wish the Government well in the endeavours on which they're embarked, although the world is always uncertain, no matter what our trading arrangements, and certainly farmers have known, in the last 30 or 40 years, huge convulsions even inside the EU. I think there'severy cause for optimism that our brand, the Welsh brand, is now recognised the world over, and even though there is a lot more to do, there is a substantial cause for optimism.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I thank the Memberfor those questions, and I'm still managing to retain my glass-half-full attitude in spite of all the uncertainties. You say it's a ritual that I mention Brexit uncertainties, but I'm sure, in your conversations, as you go around your region, the agricultural sector and food and drink producers must be telling you that, unless we get the gentlest of Brexits, there is a great deal of uncertainty.
The one thing about the food and drink industry that's hit me is that sense of energy and ambition that it has, and that is coupled with people's interest in our products, which has meant that we've been able to get to our target so much earlier than planned. And you are right, there are so many opportunities, and I find easy to sell, if you like—. Wherever I go, people are very interested in Welsh food. You mentioned lamb in particular, and we are well known for our lamb, there's no doubt about it, but I think, even just over the last year, people are starting to learn far more about our products.
You asked about exports and you referred to exports and how we could be doing a lot more, and I don't disagree with that. I think our attendance at places like Anuga, at Gulfood in Dubai, at SIAL in Paris, is vitallyimportant. These are the world's largest food and drink events and we have supported a significant Welsh presence at these events to ensure that they get the opportunity to get that extra custom coming from overseas. Again, Hybu Cig Cymru—it's really important, as an organisation, thatthey are there, flying the flag for Welsh food and drink.
We know that the Welsh red meat industry is particularly reliant on export markets to be able to achieve those premium prices, so strong overseas demand uplifts the farm-gate prices and helps to balance supply and demand, and that then secures greater return for the supply chains.
There are opportunities, as we come out of Europe, of course, and it's vital that we get them, but at the moment we have unrestricted access to 500 million potential customers, and Brexit does put that at risk—you can't get away from that. So, that freedom from discriminatory tariff and non-tariff barriers means our producers are able to export to other EU countries much easier. But I'm doing all I an to support the companies to reach out to new markets, and obviously, in all my discussions, particularly with the UK Government, I can't reiterate often enough how a sensible trade deal is so important for our food and drink industry.

Joyce Watson AC: I want to welcome the report today. It's fairly clear that the Welsh Government is supporting the food and drink industry in every which way that it can by promoting the product, the manufacturing and supporting the staff. But I particularly want to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, whether we could do considerably more in promoting the Welsh food product and aligning it with reduced wastage in single-use plastic.
I think that there is a huge appetite—pun intended—for reduced waste in food production. And I think the moment is now and I think that we really need to seize it. There are initiatives happening to sell Wales as a country where we want to reduce waste, and one of those that are emerging is quite impressive, and that's in Aberporth, in Ceredigion, where they are fairly determined to reduce all plastic in their food products,because the single-use waste of plastic resides mostly within the food industry.I asked you, I think it was last week, a question on the opportunities that we might take, because Japan is no longer going to take the huge amount of waste—I think it was over 4,000 tonnes per year from Wales in recyclable material. So, here I see an opportunity where Wales could not only lead the way, as it has in recycling, but also in taking that as an opportunity to link that with, as I've said, the real move towards reducing single-use plastic within the food industry. I think that it would be hugely advantageous for everybody if you could, somehow, when you're giving funds to promote food production, also, at the same time, offer some incentives to promote reduced packaging going forward. Because we don't export everything that we produce; we consume considerable amounts here in Wales. I really do feel that this is an opportunity that we ought to take here and now.
I think, when we read about—I'm sure people have here—the 'ditch the straw' campaign, which is about ditching plastic straws—. That was started and originated by a nine-year-old boy from the United States taking that forward. I think we could all do very well to follow that example.
Finally, I think that it would be advantageous if you could use any influence whatsoever on supermarkets, where they're selling Welsh produce, not to put out alongside the fresh produce single-use plastic bags, but maybe to think about offering paper bags that people could put that fresh produce in, if they feel they have to, so, therefore, immediately helping to put those two things alongside each other.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I thank Joyce Watson for her very pertinent questions around the use of plastic and packaging.I think you're right, the time is now. I think people are really interested in this, and, obviously, with my colleague Hannah Blythyn, the Minister for Environment, we will be bringing forward the waste strategy for Wales, looking at food waste reduction as well, because I think that's also—. At the moment, I don't think people realise the amount of food that they throw out, and I think we've got an opportunity there to reduce the amount of food that we do waste. I think we have to. People are struggling financially, there are lots of opportunities to both minimise and prevent waste and save money.
Work has begun to look at how food packaging waste can be reduced, and we do know that plastic, in particular, is a major problem. I think we need to have that discussion with supermarkets—I know exactly what you mean about the single-use plastic bags that are alongside produce—to try and reduce the numbers that they use. The plastic straws initiative is so simple, but it's so important. When I was out in Dubai last year at Gulfood, I visited a factory that was making plastic straws. It was horrific to see the number that was coming out, and it was just incredible. So, just small things like changing from plastic to paper—because we know people want to use straws—could save so much.
So, as I say, this is a piece of work that will be taken forward by the Minister for Environment, which I will obviously support her with. I'm very happy to have conversations with her to try and reduce food waste as well, because I think it's really important that we do both, side by side.

David Melding AC: Minister, following on from Joyce Watson's question to you earlier, will the Project Helix be used to provide small and medium-sized food manufacturers with the wherewithal to change some of their processes? Because most of the examples people have talked about so far have been done by the likes of Coca-Cola, Waitrose, Wetherspoon's, Iceland, McDonald's—very large companies with the wherewithal to change quite quickly some of their processes and arrangements for packaging. I do agree—we could market Wales as very eco-friendly in terms of its food and drink products, but I think some in the SME sector will need help, so a key area for Project Helix, I would say.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think that's a very good suggestion, and I don't see why they couldn't. I mentioned before that their mission is to stimulate innovation and support new project developments that would benefit our food and drink companies, so I don't see why that couldn't be part of it. We've led the way in recycling; why can't we lead the way in doing that? It's particularly for SMEs, so one of the things that they're doing is responding, for instance, to technical inquiries, so I think this could fit in perfectly.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Of course, the biggest wake-up call on plastics is the plastic we now find in our fish as a result of the pollution of the seas.
I'm very pleased that you mentioned that food is about people, their health and well-being, and it's not about adulterated chicken being washed with chlorine or artificially fattened pigs and cows plumped up so that their backs break.
I absolutely applaud the food and fun holiday schemes to combat malnutrition in children, and I look forward to more details on your obesity strategy. The Food for Life certification offered by the Soil Association is particularly relevant to the food we serve in our schools. They need local suppliers of food to enable that to work, so when we're investing in skills, we need to know where in Wales you can do horticulture courses, because wehave got plenty of meat—we're well endowed in that—and in dairy and cheeses, but we need to vary our diet in the interests of our health and well-being. Where in Wales can you buy Welsh leeks—that symbol of our nation? You may not be able to answer that today, but I'd be really interested to know the answer.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I can certainly say that Morrisons sell them, because as part of the BlasCymru—. From Pembrokeshire, Puffin Produce—they sell Welsh leeks, and I certainly know that one of the supermarkets that take them is Morrisons. But I think you're right, it is important that people know where they can access horticultural skills training, and certainly I know—. Actually, in the Minister for Environment's constituency, there's a college there that provides it. So, it is about getting that balance. But, again, I have seen an increase in people who do want to take up horticulture, certainly in my own constituency, so I do think those skills have to be there, and part of the skills conference that we're having and the discussions with companies is to make sure every skill that they need like that is available.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

6. Landfill Disposals Tax (Administration) Regulations 2018

The next item on the agenda is the Landfill Disposals Tax (Administration) Regulations 2018, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance to move that motion—Mark Drakeford.

Motion NDM6629Julie James
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5
1. Approves that the draft Landfill Disposals Tax (Administration) (Wales) Regulations 2018 are made in accordance with the draftlaidin the Table Office on 12 December 2017.

Motion moved.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I am pleased to put forward the Landfill Disposals Tax (Administration) Regulations 2018.

Mark Drakeford AC: Can I put on record my thanks to both the Finance Committee and the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee for their work in considering these regulations? They are made under sections 17, 54 and 93 of the Landfill Disposals Tax (Wales) Act 2017, and both relate to the administration of that tax.
The regulations cover two main areas. Part 2 sets out the requirements additional to those in the Act that must be met in order for waste fines to qualify for the lower rate of tax. Waste fines are small fragments of material produced by a waste treatment process that involves mechanical treatment. Requirements included in the regulations include carrying out loss on ignition testing on waste fines, and the arrangements for doing so. They confer powers to enable the Welsh Revenue Authority to set out the detail of these requirements in a legally enforceable notice, and if these regulations are confirmed by the National Assembly this afternoon, they will assist landfill operators to determine the correct amount of tax chargeable.
Part 3 establishes a customer insolvency credit. This provides landfill site operators with an entitlement to a tax credit where their customer becomes insolvent before having paid the operator for carrying out a taxable disposal. Members of the Finance Committee will recall, from their consideration, that this was a matter of some controversy during the passage of the Act, with different respondents to consultation promoting very different approaches: some arguing for complete abolition of the tax credit, others for a very generous level of retention.
In the event,the regulations before the Assembly today broadly follow the approach adopted in Scotland. They retain a tax credit in this area, but narrow the conditions that give rise to an entitlement. The credit is only available under these regulations where the operator's customer has become insolvent. The primary aim of the regulations is to protect revenues, and then to provide stability to operators.

Mark Drakeford AC: I ask Members to support these regulations this afternoon.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. I have no further comments as the Cabinet Secretary has answered everything that was raised by the Finance Committee and by others.

Wow. Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Llywydd, I do welcome theseLandfill Disposals Tax (Administration) Regulations 2018,and I support the Cabinet Secretary unreservedly as a member now of the Finance Committee. I'm delighted to see the first tax for 800 years, not just on the statute book, but ready for implementation from April 2018. I'm glad I was able to play my part as a former finance Minister to pave the way for this new day for Wales, bringing forward theTax Collection and Management(Wales) Bill,which received Royal Assent in 2016.
But for the record, in this centenary year of women's suffrage, I'm conscious of the role women have played in this Assembly—in Government as finance Ministers, Edwina Hart and Sue Essex, before my six-year term in the post, and in the Assembly, Jocelyn Davies, as the former Chair of the Finance Committee, which scrutinised the Tax Collection and Management (Wales) Bill. I'm delighted that the Welsh Revenue Authority, which will be collecting this tax and the land transaction tax, ischaired by a woman, Kathryn Bishop. In 1918, women got partial suffrage, and that was the time when the Women's Tax Resistance League, whose slogan was, 'No Vote, No Tax', was disbanded because, finally, women were getting the vote. So, let's mark this historical day, in the spirit of Hywel Dda, to promote equality in all aspects of devolution, including in the delivery and management of our new taxes in Wales.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary to reply to the debate.

Mark Drakeford AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Can I say to Jane Hutt how much I agree with her on the very significant part that women Members of this Assembly have played throughout the development of these new responsibilities? She will be interested to know, because I was asked this question in front of the Finance Committee very recently, that, in the Welsh Revenue Authority, over half the appointments that have now been made to the authority are women, and that women are represented at every level of responsibility within this new body, thus continuing the work that she and others have pioneered in this field.
Can I thank Simon Thomas for recognising that I've been able to respond to the points that the Finance Committee were interested in? Although technical in nature, Llywydd, the aim of the regulations is to provide a consistent, clear and fair set of requirements that taxpayers can follow in identifying when the lower rate of tax can be applied to qualifying mixtures of fine materials, and also in determining their entitlement to the consumer insolvency credit. I hope that Members will feel able to support them this afternoon.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. The Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2018

The next item is the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2018. I call on the Minister for Environment to move the motion. Hannah Blythyn.

Motion NDM6628 Julie James
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5
1.Approves that the draft Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2018 are made in accordance with the draftlaidin the Table Office on 11 December 2017.

Motion moved.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I look forward to discussing these regulations, which will make an important contribution to improving air quality and reducing industrial pollution.

Hannah Blythyn AC: In the air quality debate on 5 December I set out the range of actions that the Welsh Government is taking to deliver improvements to air quality in Wales. During this debate I made clear the actions essential for the health and well-being of our communities and our environment.
TheEnvironmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2018will implementthe medium combustion plant directive,helping to tackle the air quality challenge by extending and strengthening our existing controls on the emission of polluting substances tothe atmosphere from combustion plant.Medium combustion plant between 1 MW thermal and 50 MW thermal in capacity are used for a wide variety of applications. These include generating heat for large buildings such as offices, hotels, hospitals and schools, and providing heat and steam for industrial processes and generating electricity.
The Environmental Permitting(England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2018 will give effect to the directive's upper limits on emissions of nitrate oxides, sulphur dioxide and particulate matter to the atmosphere from medium combustion plant. These are key atmospheric pollutants. Plant over 20 MW thermal capacity are already subject to environmental controls under our environmental permitting regime, including the requirement that best available techniques are applied to prevent pollution and that no significant pollution is caused. These controls remain in place alongside the newly implemented requirements of the medium combustion plant directive.
The regulations will also introduce targeted additional controls to tackle pollution from combustion plant below 50 MW thermal that are used to generate electricity. Over recent years we have seen significant growth in the numbers of diesel-burning combustion plant used to generate electricity during short periods of high demand. These plant can produce over six times as much nitrogen oxides as the gas-burning alternatives. The controls that will be introduced by the regulations are needed to ensure that these electricity generating plant do not impact on air quality and public health.
The regulations will require operators of effective plant to obtain an environmental permit from Natural Resources Wales. The permits will specify the detailed operating requirements necessary to ensure the protection of air quality, including emission limit values of key pollutants, monitoring requirements and reporting obligations. These requirements will be administered and enforced by Natural Resources Wales for the lifetime of each permit, and the costs associated with permit issue and compliance checking will be met by the operator under existing cost recovery provisions for environmental permitting.
I seek your support today for the implementation of the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2018. The directive obligations these regulations will introduce, and the targeted additional controls on electricity generating plant, will make an important contribution to improving air quality and public health in line with the Welsh Government's well-being goals and the national strategy, 'Prosperity for All'.

Simon Thomas AC: I thank the Minister for setting out the need for these regulations. We do support what the Minister is doing, and this is a joint set of regulations between England and Wales, of course, in response to an EU directive.
I've got a couple of questions, if I may. Could the Minister just confirm that, in fact, though we welcome these, these regulations are actually being transposed late, and beyond the timescale that was set out by the EU, which I think is a regrettable state of affairs, and I'd like to understand how that happened? The second point I'd like to make is that, as I understand these regulations, they will now include some of the power plants that the Minister referred to, which have not been captured by directives such as this in the past. This is a very important step in terms of maintaining good air quality and better air quality in Wales. We know the public health implications of the poor air quality we have in many parts of Wales.
The permitting process, however, as I understand, also allows the older plants, so, actually the most polluting ones, to have more time to come up to speed, and I'd like to understand how we're going to use the best information we get and the best work of Natural Resources Wales to actually try and accelerate that process, because it seems to me that, rather than giving the older plants more time, we almost should be doing it the other way round. There may be issues here around costs and effectiveness, but they're the ones that are really contributing to the public health emergency that we have in Wales at the moment.

I call on the Minister to respond to the debate. Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn AC: May I thank the Member for his contribution in this debate? Your first question was on the late transposal of the medium combustion plant directive. The delayed transposition has resulted from delays to the finalisation of elements of the regulations dealing with the interplay with existing industrial environmental controls. Once the regulations were finalised they had to go through a three-month period of notification to the European Commission, during which the regulations could not be progressed. The notification period ended on 8 December and we laid the regulations before the Assembly the following working day, which was 11 December. The regulations were laid in Parliament on the same day. I'm sure the transposition delay will not affect the timely introduction of the directive's requirements, the first of which must be applied by 20 December this year.
In terms of the phasing for some of the older plants, a large number of these combustion plants that are affected—up to 30,000 in England and Wales—in many cases the operators of these plants will not have encountered the environmental permitting regime, so it's to raise awareness and give it time for that permitting to take place. The phasing in period, it's hoped, will also help to encourage operators to invest in new, cleaner technology rather than retrofitting old plant with pollution abatement equipment.
Thank you again for your contribution. This is a very technical amendment in today's debate, but it's an important one as it helps us work towards our aspirations of tackling poor air quality in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Debate:  The Thurley Review of Amgueddfa Cymru

The next item is the debate on the Thurley review of Amgueddfa Cymru, and I call on the Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism to move the motion—Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

Motion NDM6627Julie James
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Notes the publication of the review of Amgueddfa Cymru—National Museum Wales.
2. Welcomes the report’s positivity regarding the standard of our National Museum and the quality of the work carried out by staff.
3. Recognises the issues identified and acknowledges that Amgueddfa Cymru and the Welsh Government must work in partnership to address the recommendations within the report.

Motion moved.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. It’s a privilege for me to open this discussion on a matter within my cultural responsibilities, and in so doing I use the Government time at the Assembly to celebrate the development of cultural institutions—important institutions—and also to give Assembly Members and the public the opportunity, following the publication of this report, to discuss its content further and to help us in the process, as Government, in collaboration with the museum to strengthen our national institutions.
The national institutions dealing with heritage and history are institutions where, without being too nationalistic or romantic here, the heartbeat of the nation is to be heard, because these institutions offer a special experience for visitors to Wales, and they offer a sense of place and pride for communities in Wales. They are institutions that can be very useful in welcoming new arrivals and to explain the histories and the aspirations of people of Wales over the centuries, and also to offer experiences of history and evidence for people of all generations.
National Museum Wales, as you know, has seven locations scattered across Wales, and this institution is a vital part of the work of providing cultural experiences on people’s doorsteps almost, and the work of providing experiences also cares for our heritage. Apart from four visits to Llandudno, the place I have visited most since I came into this post is St Fagans, and the opportunity to revisit this location often recently has helped me to understand how much development and redevelopment has been made in supporting an investment of over £7 million by the Welsh Government. I was hugely impressed by the new facilities in St Fagans, and it’s clear that there is a long history of very hard work, passion and commitment from everyone from the skilled historic buildings unit, through to the general director and all of the staff who are so enthusiastic.
But, in the history of that institution, as with all institutions, there have been problems and there continue to be challenges. In response to the challenges and at the request of National Museum Wales itself, my predecessor, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, Ken Skates, commissioned this independent report that we are discussing today back in 2016. The ambition was to find a way that the Welsh Government and National Museum Wales could work together more effectively.
I’m very grateful to Dr Simon Thurley. I’m familiar with his work in English Heritage for many years. I’m very grateful to him for the responsibility he took for the review and the readable way that it was written. Indeed, it’s unusually readable in my experience of reading public reports, even in the field of culture. The report has succeeded to discuss the strengths and weaknesses, to note the issues, to consider opportunities and to put forward ideas of how the museum can move forward in several different areas.
As you see from reading the report, there are 17 recommendations. I don’t want to discuss all of these individually, but I welcome all contributions directly on these recommendation.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: I think there are three main areas of recommendations and I’ll try refer to these in turn. They include the need for Amgueddfa Cymru to maximise income to improve sustainability and to decrease its significant dependency on public funding, to develop links and relationships, especially with the Welsh Government, and to develop the interpretation offer in the museums across the entire institution.
Several recommendations identify the need for Amgueddfa Cymru to work differently to maximise its potential for income generation. I acknowledge that it’s not easy for a large and complex organisation to change its business model, but it is important that this does happen and, in the substantial discussions that I’ve had with Amgueddfa Cymru, it’s clear that there is a willingness to accept and embrace the need for change.
In addition to this, the museum is already involved in the Historic Wales partnership, and I certainly appreciate the collaboration between different aspects of heritage work, especially Cadw’s work, which continues—as you’ll remember from a previous statement that I made here—as part of the Government, although it has greater independence in its work and its management. So, I look forward to seeing further development in the partnership and closer collaboration between the institutions in the Historic Wales partnership. I also appreciate the willingness of the unions to take part in the discussions, and the assurance that I can give here publicly that the points of view of staff are a vital part of the process of making decisions.
Amgueddfa Cymru has a real opportunity to consider the excellent improvement made by Cadw in terms of income generation and to learn relevant lessons. While many Cadw sites have an admission charge, this report does draw attention to other national organisations in the United Kingdom that provide free entry to their permanent galleries while charging for admission to see special exhibitions and to receive additional services. So, I’d like to emphasise that Amgueddfa Cymru is considering other opportunities too, including, for example, car and coach parking, improving the catering offer, looking at the opening hours and considering whether it would be possible for some sites to open at particular times of the year.
A recommendation that is also made in this report is vitally important in recommending the appointment of an experienced commercial director. The museum, certainly in its discussions with me, has accepted this idea gladly, because the skills that would be provided by such an appointment would drive change and improvement across the institution.
May I refer again to the particular success of St Fagans? The museum has raised over £30 million to bring the new projects at St Fagans to fruition. The majority of this funding has come from the Heritage Lottery Fund and the Welsh Government, but the rest of the funding, which is a substantial amount, has been raised thanks to the hard work of the trustees and staff of the museum. This funding has come from a variety of sources, which demonstrates that the museum can identify opportunities and attract funding to projects. Even though this process has been successful, it’s important that I acknowledge here today that it has taken considerable time and effort and that I appreciate that time and effort.
Now, there will always be a balance to maintain between our hugely successful policy, which has been long established, of offering free entry and the need to be more commercially minded, and I’m eager to hear Members' views on how we can ensure that that balance is struck.
The second series of recommendations that I referred to by Dr Simon Thurley revolve around relationships, particularly between the Welsh Government and Amgueddfa Cymru. The report does raise concerns about what it considers an unwarranted level of control. I understand that concern, and, as someone who has been involved in a number of public institutions over the years, I think that it is important at the same time to have stricter scrutiny processes for expenditure and institutions, as well as to ensure that there is a way, in so doing, of looking at other institutions within the United Kingdom that are willing to take advantage of the possibility of generating additional income. There is no opposition in principle to this additional income being generated, as long as it sits alongside the fundamental principle of free entry in general to the institutions.
I hope therefore that these recommendations will be considered further, and I look forward to the full debate on that in this place.But I'd also like to say one further thing before I conclude my opening comments. Reference has been made in the report, which made very painful reading for me, to a breakdown in the relationship between senior management teams and the unions representing the workforce. Clearly, this isn't a healthy situation for any public body or for any commercial organisation or partnership to be in. I don't want to make any specific comments about management issues here today. That wouldn't be appropriate. I respect the arm's-length principle in cultural institutions and I believe that the Welsh Government must maintain this distance in order to be effective in its scrutiny function of bodies that it funds.I encourage collaboration, including the Acas negotiation process if necessary, and in that situation I hope that we won't fall into the trap of repeating history that would repeat that failure to understand each other.
The third area that I wish to deal with in these opening remarks conveys the importance of developing the particular offer of the museums. I am very grateful for the careful and detailed comments that have been made on all of the locations, but particularly the National Slate Museum, a museum that is very close to my heart, of course, because of the familial link with the industry, and also the National Roman Legion Museum, which I had the huge pleasure of visiting in Caerleon yesterday. Again, the example of St Fagans is before us, and it shows how these smaller museums can take advantage of the experience of St Fagans and at Cadw to develop their offer, demonstrating that a museum isn't a static body but a body that continues to grow as the understanding of the nation's history also grows.
As I said, I have met the museum's officials several times to discuss this report and the recommendations, and I continue to look forward to collaborating with them, and I'm eager this afternoon, and from today onwards, to hear your contribution as the National Assembly that has responsibility for our national institutions in the process of reforming them. Thank you very much for listening.

Suzy Davies AC: May I thank the Minister for bringing the review to the Chamber today?

Suzy Davies AC: It's a pretty punchy review, I think, although its recommendations, I think, need to be considered alongside the conclusions of the group chaired by Justin Albert on the possible shape of Historic Wales and, of course, your recent decision that Cadw would remain wholly in Government. I just want to speak very briefly about that part of the report that refers to the industrial dispute that affected activities during the museum's recent past. I don't want to dwell on it much, but I tend to agree that this is not a matter for Government to intercede in directly, when it comes to industrial relations of a non-Government body, but I do believe it's right for both parties to inform AMs of their views, because every person involved in this is somebody's constituent, and we, as representatives, can highlight those views to a point where they bring pressure to bear. But that is not the same as the Executive stepping in and influencing.
Whether Dr Thurley has adequately or accurately represented the relationship between staff, management and even Government, I genuinely can't say, but I do think that the need for realistic modernisation of the national museum and the appropriate recognition of staff expertise, commitment and flexibility is not a binary choice. But the fact that it's come up as an issue is illustrative of a theme that has emerged from discussions about the museum in the last year or so. And that issue is the place of Government and its relationship with the independence of the museum.
On the strength of recent scrutiny, not least in this report, the museum's had to face criticism about its ability to manage the concerns of theworkforce properly, and, of course, to manage the changes in its financial circumstances and support. Now, as far as I'm concerned, that is about gaps in managementskills that can and have to be addressed, and not a reason for Government creep into theindependent space of the museum.
That looming prospect of merged commercial functions with Welsh Government was a very successful project in holding up a mirror to the museum so that it could see and begin to plan to overcome its shortcomings, particularly with regard to its commercial activities, and it's exploiting those potential commercial activities that are at the heart of this Thurley review, after all.Now, I have no problem at all with themuseum working collaboratively with Cadw to improve commercial, or, indeed, any other, opportunities, but that's just one relationship that willimprove their prospects.
And I just want to be clear, since we've had that confirmation thatCadw will remain wholly within Government, that I can't see my party supporting any closer integration between those two bodies. While each should co-operate for mutual benefit—. Actually, Cadw and Visit Wales have cropped up in this review and the Justin Albert report. That's one thing, but I think Government really needs to back off anything that hints at operational interference, or even those elements of the museum's strategy that don't speak to theremit letter or the collaborative work streams.
The review was very effusive about themuseum's existing offer and even more effusive aboutthe potential offer, and Ithink it would be hard to disagree with that. Since it's had its rude awakening, the museum has already raised £10.3 million through earned income—nearly twice as much as any other national cultural organisation—and slashed the dependence on Government income to two thirds in just one year alone, so it can do it. And they're now actively recruiting for a commercial director, although maybe they want to revisit expertise on staff relations as well.
Minister, I'm always a bit sceptical about drawing comparisons with London institutions when we talk of funding our culture and heritage offer, but I hope that the new commercial director will consider even the most controversial ideas put forward by Thurley, just to throw them around and really examine if there's anything that Wales can learn from them. I'd say, as Welsh Conservatives, we support the general principle of free entry to core collections, but we also support the principle to charge for headline exhibitions if the museum chooses to do that, because the evidence points both ways on attendance, and I think some of that can be overcome by allowances within charging schemes, for example. But the decision to charge should be for the museum and not for Government, and it should not be used by either body to argue for cuts or for extra money from the public purse.
Minister, you've said an awful lot about what is impressive about the museum already. I just wanted to comment on something that Dr Thurley raised about changes to some of the sites and where differences could be made, not just to the income potential for the museum, but the coherence of the story, and I think that is a story that needs to be determined by the museum, not by Government, or not, indeed, by Thurley. This is why commercial independence is essential for the museum and its ability to set more priorities for itself. That is not to diminish the importance of theGovernment's remit letter and its priorities, and, of course, the funding, conditional, to a degree, on those priorities being met, but it needs to be free to grow its finances outside the relationship with Government without the risk of cuts to public support being the main driver for priority setting. Thank you.

Dai Lloyd AC: It's a pleasure to participate in this important debate on the Thurley review. As Suzy had mentioned, this builds on previous reviews, and the rather troubled history of the institution over the past two years.
Now, we are very proud of Amgueddfa Genedlaethol Cymru. It was established by royal charter back in 1907. It was to promote public education—that was thepurpose of thecharter—and it's true to say that the museum has delivered that laudablyover the years. Educating the world about Wales and educating the Welsh about the nation—that was one of the key aims back from 1912. Educating the world about Wales and educating the people of Walesabout their own country. People are still discoveringthings about their own nation—people who have lived here through their lives say, 'Well, jiw, I never knew that.'That's the importance of visiting the various sites of the national museum. There are historical facts that continue to surprise you about this nation.
In those dark days pre devolution, the national museum was a pillar of inspiration and was firm in its Welsh identity. It cast a shining light, representing Wales when similar structures didn't exist to express our national identity, our history and our traditions, giving backbone to every nationalist and patriot. That's the importance of the independence of Amgueddfa Cymru: to tell the story of Wales without it being negatively influenced by external influences, and being entirely independent of any Government. As we've heard, we've had the discussions on Historic Wales, with the original intention of the Cabinet Secretary of attempting to merge our heritage and large organisations. It's a wonderful thing that that absurd idea has been cast aside. But confirmation that there is no intention to merge our national arts institutions would be another clear signal that the Welsh Government takes the independence of the sector seriously.
Turning to another element, funding is crucially important. Since 2012, there have been substantial cuts in the funding of Amgueddfa Cymru, cuts of around 11 per cent. This led to arguments between the museum and the unions—we have heard about it repeatedly—about terms, conditions, wages, and there were strikes. They were difficult times; they were dark times, indeed. We don't want to go back to those days, but that was partly because of cuts in funding. We've also heard about the commercial successes that have been achieved recently by the museum, and we should also recognise the agreement between this Government and Plaid Cymru. As a result, the museum will receive a financial boost for the next two years. It would be good to hear assurances from the Minister this afternoon about financial security for the future, following that period, for Amgueddfa Cymru.
The Thurley report strikes a very positive note, as Suzy has mentioned, with praise for the quality of Amgueddfa Cymru and the quality and commitment of the staff. But, of course, there's also room for improvement, as has been noted, and it's included in the report. The report recognises that Amgueddfa Cymru is one of the major museums of the UK. It's not simply a narrow, Welsh issue, because, andquote from the report,
'In its collections, the expertise and knowledge of its staff, its support of social and community development and its contribution to a knowledge of Welsh history and culture its achievements have been outstanding.'
'Hear, hear' I say to that. Amgueddfa Cymru continues to inspire patriots of today, and stands firm for Wales. Thank you very much.

Mike Hedges AC: I'm very pleased to take part in what I think is a very important debate today.I would like to start my contribution by making three, I think, non-contentious statements: museums are an important asset to our communities; the national museums are very important to every nation, and Wales is no different; to make them successful, we need well-paid and well-motivated staff who are committed to the Welsh museum service.
We've talked about who should control it, but can I ask this question? I do not know the OCS classification of the museums of Wales.I would expect to see them classified as Welsh Government controlled. I'm happy to be corrected on this if somone wants to correct me. I think that if they were a business, they'd be described as wholly owned subsidiaries of the Welsh Government. [Interruption.] I'll take an intervention.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: The whole point of the museum's structure, as we heard earlier, is that their history is very much based upon their own independence, guaranteed in the case of the original—[Interruption.] Guaranteed by the royal charter in its original inception. That is essential to maintain its independent structure, just as the arts council maintains an independent structure through that model, and I entirely endorse that model for the future.

Mike Hedges AC: I think there's a bit of confusion here between the two of us. I was talking in financial terms. I'll ask this question: if the Welsh Government withdrew funding tomorrow, would the museums continue, or would they be forced to close their doors? If they are wholly dependent, or substantially dependent, on the Welsh Government in operational terms, the OCS I'm sure classify them as Welsh Government-controlled bodies.
One of the things I've argued against during the whole of my time at the Assembly is exploitative contracts: zero-hours contracts, flexible low-hour contracts, annualised hours, agency staff—there's no shortage of ways to badly treat people.I also believe that everyone should be paid the real living wage. The museum staff deserve not to be subject to these employment practices. I am pleased that Mr Thurley acknowledges the high quality of all the museum sites and the impact many of them have for their local communities, both in terms of a museum presence in the locality and providing a source of regular employment in often marginal areas.
Free entry to museums has been a long-standing policy of the Labour Party in Wales. Do not exclude people on price from viewing their history. On charging, I have no difficulty in charging for specific exhibitions, with caveats that anything relating to Wales must be free. I do not believe the people of Wales should have to pay to view their own history. Also, it should not be a back-door method of charging for museum entry. I believe the report is correct in its final section addressing the need for financial stability for the museum and clarity on its funding position over the next few years. In addition to the areas outlined, I would also add that the museum is still in the process of negotiating the 2017-19 pay offer with the trade unions. Any funding settlement needs to take account of the costs associated with this and ensure a period of stability for the organisation going forward.
The museum is at a pivotal moment where it can move forward with a well-funded model that seeks to engage with its staff and their recognised trade unions, and deliver a world-class service provided by professional and well-motivated people, able to deliver for the communities and the people of Wales. Over the last year, the Historic Wales steering group has developed ideas and programmes that it hopes will build and develop such a model, which involves the recognised trade unions in the process. Ibelieve any recommendations should be considered by this group and the report should not derail the development of this work. I think it's important, and I sincerely hope, for the sake of the future of the staff and the cultural sector within Wales, that both the Welsh Government and museum management look to that option as a way to take it forward.
If I can return to what I was talking about earlier on the financial side of it, you might have whatever rules you've got and whatever charters you've got, but where is the money coming from? There are lots of organisations throughout Wales—they want money from the public sector, but they want to run their organisations as if they're part of the private sector. That is one of the things—[Interruption.] Please, yes.

Suzy Davies AC: I think part of the purpose of the Thurley review was to see how the museumsector—well, certainly the national museumsector as a whole—could raise more of its income so that that balance between public funding and non-government funding would change.

Mike Hedges AC: I've got no problem with organisations raising money. The point I'm trying to get across—which I'm obviously failing with—is that these organisations are wholly dependent on Government money. If the Government turns the money off, these organisations close. That is the key to this. So, they can't go about pretending they're private sector organisations for the benefit of themselves. They're dependent on Government money, they're dependent on the public sector, they're dependent on money from the taxpayers of Wales, and, as such, they should be responsible to them.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thanks to the Minister for bringing today's debate. I haven't yet had any formal contact with the new Minister, either in the Chamber or in committee, so I'd like to officially welcome him into his new role. I think we all feel, certainly in this section of the Chamber—by which I mean the UKIP seats—that he has shown a lot of promise, and I believe he could be a valuable addition to the Government's ministerial team. I have certainly marked his name down as somebody with a bright future in Government.
On to today's matters. I've heard what the other contributors have said, but I want to go slightly further than the Thurley review and float a more contentious idea. I appreciate that there has been a commitment from the Welsh Government tothe principle of free entryto the national museum network. I don't wantto unduly restrict people's access to these museums, but I think it is possible that we could consider stretching this principle slightly so that Amguedda Cymru can generate some income and operate more effectively. A token charge of £1 for adults to enter a museum, with children going free, would not, I feel, put off parents who are considering visiting a museum as part of a family day out. Of course, there could be an argument, then, as to what will stop this £1 charge from rising and rising until it becomes exorbitant. Well, as the museums are a public facility—and will still largely be publicly financed with a grant from the Welsh Government still being the main source of income—then, surely, the Government can draw up terms under which the charge can only rise annually in line with the consumer price index, the measure of inflation that tends to rise at a lower rate than the retail price index.
There is also the issue of special exhibitions. To get many of these exhibitions to come to Wales will take considerable effort in terms of time and cost, so I feel that Amgueddfa Cymru should be able to try and recoup some of this cost by charging extra for access to these exhibitions, or at least certain ones. I appreciate what Suzy said earlier—she didn't want to have a look at what happens in London—

Suzy Davies AC: Well, I didn't quite say that.

Gareth Bennett AC: Okay, sorry. I might have slightly simplified what you said. Anyway, I'm going to have a look at what happens in London.
To get into the Victoria and Albert Museum is free, but entry to special exhibitions—and there are always numerous special exhibitions on at the V&A—currently ranges from £8 to £19. Now, we have to remember that entry to the V&A's general displays is free. So, they are perhaps having to charge fairly large amounts for the special exhibitions, at least in part, to cross-subsidise the free entry to the rest of the museum. Now, if you had the token £1 charge, you wouldn't perhaps have to do that. You could have a different financial model and you could perhaps charge £5 for the special exhibitions. You could raise money in other ways as well.
The museum in St Fagans, which I will persist in calling the Welsh national folk museum, has recently been refurbished—

Lee Waters AC: Why?

Gareth Bennett AC: Well, I'll go on to that, Lee. I will tell you later.
It has recently been refurbished with the addition of a new main building, a craft workshop and other facilities. The new building contains an enlarged cafe, activity and event spaces, some of which can be hired out to groups, and a bigger gift shop. So, this will hopefully help the museum at St Fagans to raise more revenue, and is therefore a welcome development and one that could be followed by the other museums under the umbrella of Amgueddfa Cymru.
Now, to raise Lee's point, I mentioned the old name of the St Fagans museum, which was what I knew it as growing up. It has since been called the Museum of Welsh Life, and is now, I see, named the St Fagans National Museum of History—neither of which are as evocative as the original name, in my opinion. Can I therefore issue a plea to the museums to keep their evocative, original names? Because I also noticed that—

Lee Waters AC: Like the National Front.

Gareth Bennett AC: No, not that. The maritime museum, as was, is now called the National Waterfront Museum. Before long, we will have the Big Pit National Coal Museum changing its name into the 'National Industry Museum' or some similarly anodyne title. I sometimes wonder who dreams these name changes up. Every time you change a name, you will lose potential customers because you are changing a well-known brand. I thinkthere is a strong commercial case for sticking with the name that is already familiar to many people. However, I can see that I'm no expert in this field. [Interruption.] Yes, I do. These kinds of decisions certainly, though, should fall under the oversight of somebody like a commercial director. I see that the Thurley review is calling for Amgueddfa Cymru to bring in a commercial director, and I would strongly endorse that call. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie Morgan AC: It's a great pleasure to take part in this very important debate. The first thing I want to say, really, is that I'm glad that this is getting us talking about National Museum Wales as I think it's of huge importance to us as a nation because we need to tell our story to our children here in Wales as well as to visitors who come here. And I agree that Wales should be telling its story to the world of how a small nation has had such a massive impact, particularly in terms of the industrial revolution.
This report by Simon Thurley does recognise National Museum Wales, Amgueddfa Cymru, as one of the jewels in the crown of the museums in the UK, and I'm particularly pleased that it praises the expertise and knowledge of the staff who work there.Because I think all our experience of the staff, and particularly the front-line staff, the people who welcome you when you go there, and the skills of the craftspeople, the people who split the slates, and all the craftspeople at St Fagans—I think it is absolutely great that they are acknowledged. The report also praises the rise in visitor numbers to the national museum in Cardiff, which were up 34 per cent between 2010 and 2015, to nearly 0.5 million a year.
Obviously, in terms of the commercial viability, it's obvious that the report is concentrating a lot of its emphasis on that, and some of his recommendations do make sense to me, such as asking visitors for donations. A donation of 20p per head is not unaffordable, and the report says that this has raised £300,000 a year. I see no problems at all in asking for small donations, and obviously other museums are sometimes much more forthright in asking for money. I don't see a problem with charging for special exhibitions, and I think it would be acceptable to have a member scheme, which would also help to raise funds. I think these options should be investigated, but I think it is absolutely essential that we keep free access. I think it's one of the great achievements of this Assembly, of the Welsh Government, that there is free access so that everybody, whatever their means, can benefit from the museums. And I believe that this huge rise in numbers is directly linked to the openness of the museum—the fact that people can go there and don't have to worry about paying. So, I don't think there should be any barrier, and I don't support Gareth Bennett's proposal of £1 to go in. I think it must be free.
I wanted to go on now about the relationship in the museum. I think this is pivotal moment. This is an opportunity to improve the relationship between the unions and the management. The report is correct in saying that there have been well-publicised difficulties with the staff and management relationship, and as chair of the Public and Commercial Services Union cross-party group, I am very well aware of all these difficulties. This report does look back at some of those problems, but what it doesn't say is that the reason for the problems was that the museums were seeking to slash staff wages for the lowest paid, whilst senior management pay was being increased. During this difficult time, the PCS actually ballotedtheir members four times, and I, along with other members from this Assembly, were there speaking at rallies in support of the staff, and I think it's important to say that a resolution to this dispute was actually helped and brokered by the Welsh Government. So, I think it's important that there—. Although I support the idea of the independence of the bodies, when they can't manage things properly, I think it is very important that we are able to turn to the Welsh Government.
I just want to say about some of the things that are problems at the museum. There are the zero-hours contracts that Mike Hedges already mentioned. It's not acceptable to have these zero-hours contracts, and, certainly, there should be a formal agreement on how they are used, if they have to be there at all. I think that the use of fixed-term contracts should be limited. This is a real opportunity now, on the basis of this report, to restore good relations in the museum, because I think we all feel that the staff are the key to the success of the museum, and surely their terms and conditions and pay should be in line with Welsh Government departments. Certainly, there should be time off for trade union work.
I'm very pleased that the Minister said the points of view of staff are vital. He also mentioned that, perhaps, some museums would close for certain periods of the year. Well, obviously, that will make the members of staff who work permanently in those museums for all the hours in the year—their hearts are going to sink when they read that. So, I think these issues have to be taken into consideration when proposals are made about how this is going to affect staff, and make sure they're part of the dialogue, so that there are good relationships.
So, I think that this is a great opportunity to try and start off on a new foot. Let's recognise the huge contribution that staff are making, and make sure that they're part of this dialogue.

I call on the Minister to reply to the debate.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and may I thank all of the Members who havetaken partin this debate, and for the general welcome that's been extended to the recommendations? We had opening remarks from Suzy Jenkins that emphasised that—why did I say Suzy Jenkins? It was Suzy Davies. I was thinking about someone else, Suzy Davies. We had remarks about the importance of Assembly Members expressing their opinions, and that was the reason for holding this debate and I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for the support given to independence and the importance of growing capacity within the institution. I am confident, and I wouldn't be saying this unless it wasn't on the basis of the discussions that I've had and that I'm going to have again.
As emphasised already, the independence of the museum is important, but also, as Julie Morgan said, the Government's influence as the authority and public body that has national responsibility for the museum is part of the responsibility that we have as a Government and as an Assembly. So, both of those elements have to work in accord. It's a matter of establishingthe differencebetween them that's important. I can give assurance that I will be striving to co-draft the remit letter so that we can discuss together how we want to set out the programme for the coming years. That includes, of course, the funding programme. We're restricted by the current fiscal regime establishedin Westminster as to how far we can go in the years to come to give assurance. But we will be considering that further.
I am grateful to Dai Lloyd for his appropriate historic lecture on the development of the museum and its educational role. May I assure him that there's no intention by this Minister to merge national institutions? Cultural independence, if not full constitutional independence for the nation that owns the museum, is a vital part of the culture Minister's agenda. The devolved nature of the museum within Wales itself is a vital part of its interest and its difference, as I've seen in visiting these institutions recently. I acknowledge the importance of the agreement made with Plaid Cymru. This was part of the discussion that I had with museum officials, and the intention is that we will continue in that spirit of agreement over the coming years with regard to the budget.
Thank you to Mike Hedges, who always tells the truth in an amusing way.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: I'm very grateful to Mike for providing us with lessons in public administration in a way that is so attractive and amusing to listen to, and that's supposed to be a compliment.
We are certainly aiming for financial stability and, indeed, Welsh Governmenthas already indicated that we are looking to ensure proper financial capacity, which must include meeting the need for effective remuneration. I would say, as a matter of principle, I agree with a longer term target of aligning the level of remuneration in terms of the conditions of those who work for us in the museum sector and those who work for us in other parts of our public services. That's somethingthat we need to address.
I'm very grateful to Gareth Bennett for his generous remarks, and I can assure him that there is no intention to pursue a model of charging adults and not charging younger citizens. We need to look at the family visitors to the museum as a whole unit.
With regard to names, the 'Welsh folk museum' always reminded me of somethingmore folksy than even amgueddfa werin, although I do find, as I travel around that part of west Cardiff, that the brown signs take a bit of time catching up with the latest name. No doubt that will happen in the future.
Can I here publicly thank Julie Morgan for her role, which I've now learnt more fullyabout in ensuring improved Governmentrelations and the relationship between this Assembly, through her PCS cross-party group, and the trade union side, and, indeed, the management of the museums when there were the difficulties to which we've all referred? It is indeed my wish, as much as hers, that we do not return there.
As I say, we are seeking to ensure a steady level of funding for the future, and I'm certain that the degree of support that has been exhibited in this debate today will strengthen our relationship with themuseum.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas AC: Thank you very much for your contributions.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Therefore, there will be no voting time at the end of this meeting, and that brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 17:55.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Mark Isherwood: How is the Welsh Government monitoring child-centred support for children with additional learning needs?

Mark Drakeford: Local authorities are responsible for the provision and monitoring of child-centred support for children with additional learning needs. The recently passed Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Bill places learners’ needs, views, wishes and feelings at the heart of the planning process.

Dai Lloyd: Will the First Minister make a statement on tackling loneliness and isolation in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: Addressing the causes and detrimental effects of loneliness and isolation are matters of national importance. I would like to thank the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee for its valuable inquiry report. I can confirm we are committed to bringing forward a cross-Government and national approach to tackle these issues.

Julie Morgan: What is the First Minister doing to encourage children to study STEM subjects?

Mark Drakeford: STEM skills are vital for our children’s future success. We have set out our approach to encourage engagement in STEM subjects in our STEM in education delivery plan. Actions include curriculum and qualifications reform, support for teaching professionals, and measures to enhance girls’ take up of STEM subjects.

Jayne Bryant: Will the First Minister make a statement on stillbirth rates in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: Stillbirth is a devastating event for any family. The causes of stillbirth are multi-faceted, some factors remain unknown. Stillbirth rates in Wales have remained fairly static in recent years; therefore a stillbirth sub group of the maternity network is leading a national multi-factored programme dedicated to reducing the incidence.

David Melding: Will the First Minister make a statement on how the Welsh Government will mitigate the impact of Chinese restrictions on importing foreign waste?

Mark Drakeford: Wales’s approach to high quality recycling means it is better placed than many other nations to deal with the consequences of China’s restrictions. We are working with local authorities and other partners to develop the circular economy, including the greater recycling of plastics in Wales.

Paul Davies: What is the Welsh Government doing to improve local health services in the Hywel Dda University Health Board area?

Mark Drakeford: We will continue to work with Hywel Dda university health board to provide the people of Pembrokeshire with health services that deliver the best possible outcomes for patients. We will be guided by the best and most up to date clinical evidence and advice to deliver high quality care.

Adam Price: What assessment has the First Minister made of the ability of the UK, and therefore Wales, to be part of the single market after Brexit?

Mark Drakeford: We support continued participation in the single market after Brexit, which could be achieved either through participation in EFTA/EEA or through a ‘deep and special partnership’. This will likely require the UK Government to reconsider some of the ‘red lines’ set out in the Prime Minister’s Lancaster House speech.